Ring Names - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

onewhitetree · 11-26-2001, 09:35 PM

Why do the Elven Rings have names and none of the others do?

Orald · 11-26-2001, 09:42 PM

I can't wait for this one.

(shivers with anticipation)

red · 11-26-2001, 10:02 PM

Elves rule, mortals drool.

-réd

onewhitetree · 11-26-2001, 10:04 PM

:@

It's a pity that isn't a proper smiley.

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: onewhitetree ]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 11-26-2001, 10:42 PM

They do, but you have to ask the last living authority, namely Sauron. He's been unavailable since the third age, left no forwarding address. The Nazgul probably knew the name of theirs too. Isn't that just like dwarves to keep such information secret?

Elrian · 11-26-2001, 11:10 PM

The 7 were: sleepy, sneezy, dopey, doc, happy, bashful,and grumpy [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

obloquy · 11-27-2001, 12:57 AM

Hah! Nice, Elrian. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 11-27-2001, 03:24 AM

HAH! (raucous laughter) I guess they had good reason to keep it secret! Makes you wonder what the one was called.

--Maril

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

***Sharkû*** · 11-27-2001, 07:41 AM

Two main possibilities seem likely, either the other Rings had names, and we only do not know them, or they never had any. To further analyze this dichotomy, both the processes of name generating and traditioning in general, and in Middle-Earth in especial, and the nature of the Rings have to be considered.

The latter may make the assumption seem likely that the Rings never had names. Apart from the Three, which in turn had names, the other 16 plus 1 Rings were all forged with the influential aid of Sauron. Therefore, it may be the case that the Elves would have never given such creations names of their own; for with nomenclature, there is always connected an underlying power in Middle-Earth, where names are more than ‘but sound and smoke’, and in turn can attribute a fate to people and items. On the other hand, the Rings could have had names, but these were never used by the Elves for the very same reason, or the Elves never heard of the names their dwarven and human bearers, or the Dark Lord himself – which is unlikely though - may have given them. Or we simply do not have the record in which their names are given, and in the Red Book their names are avoided.

Which leads us to the point that the Rings may have had names that were never traditioned. Dwarves were very peculiar about names, their belief considered names to be of even greater importance than other people’s; as we all know, they never told their real names to any outsider. This may have been the case with the Seven Rings of the dwarves -- they had inner names, but only to those who possessed them or were near the bearers.
With the mortal Rings, things are a bit different, since, unlike the dwarves, the men who wielded the Rings eventually totally fell to the will of Sauron and became the Nazgûl. While it is not only unlikely that a Nazgûl would even bother to name the Ring he was given (even if he still had it, and possessed yet the reason to do so), it is likewise not probable that names which may have been given to the Nine Rings before the corruption of the nine bearers would have been traditioned.

As for the One Ring itself, I personally doubt that even its creator ever gave it a name. Why would he have had to, anyway; Sauron more likely viewed the Ring as an integral part of himself, not as an independent physically existing item. If the Ring had had a name, we can assume that it was never used, even if it were known, but that instead the euphemism ‘One Ring’ was used in much the same way Sauron was always spoken of only as the ‘Dark Lord’ or ‘The Enemy’ by all save the most powerful.
When it comes to the Three Rings, one could speculate that their names never really were meant as such; or that at least these three names were not made up with this intention, i.e. that it rather was the same case as often in nomenclature, that yet unnamed things slowly take a name which is in fact only a description of the item. This is possible for all three Elven Rings. Vilya was the ring of air, Nenya was the ring of water, Narya the ring of fire, and their names mean nothing else. We can assume Celebrimbor never referred to them by anything else but the description ‘ring of fire (… )’, which in his Quenya tongue may have been ‘Narya (… )’; and only over the course of ages the description became a name of its own. Since we can also assume that the Nine and the Seven did not have such very special traits as the Three, it may also have been superfluos, if at all possible, to give them individual names. The dwarven Rings may have been called ‘rings of gold’, but if all Seven can be, and are called that, individual names will not develop from that description.

So, to answer the question at last, whether the other Ring had names, one can say: maybe, but we do not know them for some reason, and on the other hand it seems very likely that they never had names anyway.

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Sharku ]

***Mister Underhill*** · 11-27-2001, 11:59 AM

You were warned, Kate. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

onewhitetree · 11-27-2001, 01:50 PM

So I was, Underhill, so I was.

It all makes sense to me now...I have seen the light of ring nomenclature, and Sharku is the bearer.

¡Muchas gracias!

edit: This is my 200th post! Do I get a prize?! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: onewhitetree ]

***Sharkû*** · 11-27-2001, 02:54 PM

To the Poster of the Week award, it is a long way, Kate. Maybe when we have a 'highest percentage of off-topic posts' or 'least posts in relation to membership time' award [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

onewhitetree · 11-27-2001, 09:31 PM

LOL...ahhh, you make me laugh. Here's to one more totally unnecessary post! Many happy returns!

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 11-27-2001, 11:42 PM

Don't take it ill, *tree, as they say, obviously it's for the most loquacious, forgetful that this is the sort they will soon pray will pleeeaze shut up.. visualizing rags stuffed in mouths, hands tied to backs of chairs...

onewhitetree · 11-28-2001, 04:03 PM

Well, all I really wanted was a Barrow-Cookie. I got one for my 100th post! Hmph.

***Mister Underhill*** · 11-28-2001, 04:27 PM

*Underhill awards Kate a dusty Barrow Cookie and an eerily glowing green mug of chilled Barrow Milk in honor of her two hundreth*

At this pace, you should make 300 by 2005!

onewhitetree · 11-28-2001, 08:22 PM

Thank you, thank you, oh generous hobbit!

***Mister Underhill*** · 11-28-2001, 08:47 PM

You might want to wait to thank me until after you've eaten.

onewhitetree · 11-28-2001, 10:29 PM

It's the thought that counts, that what I always say. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Trusting that your thoughts all wish me the very best, that is.

***Mister Underhill*** · 11-29-2001, 09:11 AM

I would never dream of wishing you anything but the best, Kate -- it's just that the eerie green Barrow-milk has been known to upset the stomachs of the lactose and/or ectoplasm intolerant. Barrow-treats are not renowned for their farm-freshness, I'm afraid...

Witch King of Angmar · 11-29-2001, 09:05 PM

Its no fair! I WANTA BARROW-COOKIE! And some Barrow-Milk to please.

Elrian · 11-30-2001, 11:07 PM

Hey I never got a Barrow cookie either [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 12-01-2001, 03:18 AM

Oh dear, this has caused so much trouble, Mister Underhill and Sharku will be up all night, digging up barrow-cookies... skimming the green fuzz off of barrow-milk...

onewhitetree · 12-01-2001, 01:34 PM

Sorry guys, I'm just special. You'll have to dig your own food.

Elrian · 12-01-2001, 05:31 PM

A certain pet cat, would make a great companion for me! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

So where's my cookie
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

***Mister Underhill*** · 12-03-2001, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Witch King of Angmar:
<STRONG>Its no fair! I WANTA BARROW-COOKIE! And some Barrow-Milk to please.</STRONG>

Never thought I'd un-live to see the Witch-King throw a temper-tantrum, much less ask please.

Elrian · 12-03-2001, 02:38 AM

Spooky and I are are enjoying a nice evening of haunting. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Elrian ]

Nazgûl Queen · 04-30-2002, 10:32 PM

<center><font color="red">*Smiles sweetly*
Can I please have a barrow-cookie and milk?

Elrian · 05-01-2002, 09:02 AM

Rumor has it, that's a chat room treat, but if you happen to dig some up somewhere keep them secret and keep them safe or the cookie monsters (those lemba's thieves)will get them. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Eärendil · 05-01-2002, 12:04 PM

I´ll keep my mouth shut about my barrow-cookies then... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Er...ooops!

Niphredil Baggins · 05-02-2002, 09:05 AM

Maybe Sauron called it 'My Precious' too. Bilbo did, after all.

Anarya SilverBranch · 05-02-2002, 06:07 PM

Though the green milk does sound appitizing guys, I think i'll pass. I really don't want to go get my stomach pumped tonight. I'm just not in the mood for it [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

11-26-2001, 09:35 PM	#1
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	Ring Names Why do the Elven Rings have names and none of the others do? __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-26-2001, 10:02 PM	#3
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 366	Elves rule, mortals drool. -réd __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

11-26-2001, 10:04 PM	#4
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	:@ It's a pity that isn't a proper smiley. [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: onewhitetree ] __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-26-2001, 10:42 PM	#5
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	They do, but you have to ask the last living authority, namely Sauron. He's been unavailable since the third age, left no forwarding address. The Nazgul probably knew the name of theirs too. Isn't that just like dwarves to keep such information secret? __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

11-26-2001, 11:10 PM	#6
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The 7 were: sleepy, sneezy, dopey, doc, happy, bashful,and grumpy [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

11-26-2001, 09:42 PM	#2
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	I can't wait for this one. (shivers with anticipation)

11-27-2001, 12:57 AM	#7
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Hah! Nice, Elrian. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

11-27-2001, 03:24 AM	#8
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	HAH! (raucous laughter) I guess they had good reason to keep it secret! Makes you wonder what the one was called. --Maril [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

11-27-2001, 07:41 AM	#9
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Two main possibilities seem likely, either the other Rings had names, and we only do not know them, or they never had any. To further analyze this dichotomy, both the processes of name generating and traditioning in general, and in Middle-Earth in especial, and the nature of the Rings have to be considered. The latter may make the assumption seem likely that the Rings never had names. Apart from the Three, which in turn had names, the other 16 plus 1 Rings were all forged with the influential aid of Sauron. Therefore, it may be the case that the Elves would have never given such creations names of their own; for with nomenclature, there is always connected an underlying power in Middle-Earth, where names are more than ‘but sound and smoke’, and in turn can attribute a fate to people and items. On the other hand, the Rings could have had names, but these were never used by the Elves for the very same reason, or the Elves never heard of the names their dwarven and human bearers, or the Dark Lord himself – which is unlikely though - may have given them. Or we simply do not have the record in which their names are given, and in the Red Book their names are avoided. Which leads us to the point that the Rings may have had names that were never traditioned. Dwarves were very peculiar about names, their belief considered names to be of even greater importance than other people’s; as we all know, they never told their real names to any outsider. This may have been the case with the Seven Rings of the dwarves -- they had inner names, but only to those who possessed them or were near the bearers. With the mortal Rings, things are a bit different, since, unlike the dwarves, the men who wielded the Rings eventually totally fell to the will of Sauron and became the Nazgûl. While it is not only unlikely that a Nazgûl would even bother to name the Ring he was given (even if he still had it, and possessed yet the reason to do so), it is likewise not probable that names which may have been given to the Nine Rings before the corruption of the nine bearers would have been traditioned. As for the One Ring itself, I personally doubt that even its creator ever gave it a name. Why would he have had to, anyway; Sauron more likely viewed the Ring as an integral part of himself, not as an independent physically existing item. If the Ring had had a name, we can assume that it was never used, even if it were known, but that instead the euphemism ‘One Ring’ was used in much the same way Sauron was always spoken of only as the ‘Dark Lord’ or ‘The Enemy’ by all save the most powerful. When it comes to the Three Rings, one could speculate that their names never really were meant as such; or that at least these three names were not made up with this intention, i.e. that it rather was the same case as often in nomenclature, that yet unnamed things slowly take a name which is in fact only a description of the item. This is possible for all three Elven Rings. Vilya was the ring of air, Nenya was the ring of water, Narya the ring of fire, and their names mean nothing else. We can assume Celebrimbor never referred to them by anything else but the description ‘ring of fire (… )’, which in his Quenya tongue may have been ‘Narya (… )’; and only over the course of ages the description became a name of its own. Since we can also assume that the Nine and the Seven did not have such very special traits as the Three, it may also have been superfluos, if at all possible, to give them individual names. The dwarven Rings may have been called ‘rings of gold’, but if all Seven can be, and are called that, individual names will not develop from that description. So, to answer the question at last, whether the other Ring had names, one can say: maybe, but we do not know them for some reason, and on the other hand it seems very likely that they never had names anyway. [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Sharku ]

11-27-2001, 11:59 AM	#10
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	You were warned, Kate. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

11-27-2001, 01:50 PM	#11
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	So I was, Underhill, so I was. It all makes sense to me now...I have seen the light of ring nomenclature, and Sharku is the bearer. ¡Muchas gracias! edit: This is my 200th post! Do I get a prize?! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: onewhitetree ] __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-27-2001, 02:54 PM	#12
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	To the Poster of the Week award, it is a long way, Kate. Maybe when we have a 'highest percentage of off-topic posts' or 'least posts in relation to membership time' award [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

11-27-2001, 09:31 PM	#13
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	LOL...ahhh, you make me laugh. Here's to one more totally unnecessary post! Many happy returns! __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-27-2001, 11:42 PM	#14
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Don't take it ill, tree, as they say, obviously it's for the most loquacious, forgetful that this is the sort they will soon pray will pleeeaze* shut up.. visualizing rags stuffed in mouths, hands tied to backs of chairs... __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

11-28-2001, 04:03 PM	#15
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	Well, all I really wanted was a Barrow-Cookie. I got one for my 100th post! Hmph. __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-28-2001, 04:27 PM	#16
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	Underhill awards Kate a dusty Barrow Cookie and an eerily glowing green mug of chilled Barrow Milk in honor of her two hundreth At this pace, you should make 300 by 2005!

11-28-2001, 08:22 PM	#17
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	Thank you, thank you, oh generous hobbit! __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-28-2001, 08:47 PM	#18
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	You might want to wait to thank me until after you've eaten.

11-28-2001, 10:29 PM	#19
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	It's the thought that counts, that what I always say. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Trusting that your thoughts all wish me the very best, that is. __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-29-2001, 09:11 AM	#20
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	I would never dream of wishing you anything but the best, Kate -- it's just that the eerie green Barrow-milk has been known to upset the stomachs of the lactose and/or ectoplasm intolerant. Barrow-treats are not renowned for their farm-freshness, I'm afraid...

11-29-2001, 09:05 PM	#21
Witch King of Angmar Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Angmar; Mordor; I follow the will of Sauron Posts: 26	Its no fair! I WANTA BARROW-COOKIE! And some Barrow-Milk to please. __________________ 'The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark.' Witch King of Angmar as described at the Siege of Gondor

11-30-2001, 11:07 PM	#22
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Hey I never got a Barrow cookie either [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-01-2001, 03:18 AM	#23
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Oh dear, this has caused so much trouble, Mister Underhill and Sharku will be up all night, digging up barrow-cookies... skimming the green fuzz off of barrow-milk... __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

12-01-2001, 01:34 PM	#24
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	Sorry guys, I'm just special. You'll have to dig your own food. __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

12-01-2001, 05:31 PM	#25
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	A certain pet cat, would make a great companion for me! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] So where's my cookie [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-03-2001, 02:38 AM	#27
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Spooky and I are are enjoying a nice evening of haunting. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Elrian ] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

04-30-2002, 10:32 PM	#28
Nazgûl Queen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 75	<center><font color="red">Smiles sweetly Can I please have a barrow-cookie and milk? __________________ - The Nazgûl they were; the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terribly servants; darkness went with them and they cried with the voices of death -

05-01-2002, 09:02 AM	#29
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Rumor has it, that's a chat room treat, but if you happen to dig some up somewhere keep them secret and keep them safe or the cookie monsters (those lemba's thieves)will get them. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

05-01-2002, 12:04 PM	#30
Eärendil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles) Posts: 562	I´ll keep my mouth shut about my barrow-cookies then... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Er...ooops! __________________ Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.

05-02-2002, 09:05 AM	#31
Niphredil Baggins Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 118	Maybe Sauron called it 'My Precious' too. Bilbo did, after all. __________________ Wistful, willful, wingless, fly!

05-02-2002, 06:07 PM	#32
Anarya SilverBranch Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In maiden meditation, fancy free. Posts: 245	Though the green milk does sound appitizing guys, I think i'll pass. I really don't want to go get my stomach pumped tonight. I'm just not in the mood for it [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Snow white! Snow White! O' Lady Clear! O' Queen Beyond the Western Seas! O' light to us that wander here amid the world of woven trees!