Narya and the Shire - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Flame of Anor · 07-13-2009, 07:52 PM

Anyone even notice how it was so hard for Sauron and the Nazgûl to find the Shire, even though Hobbits used to live near the Anduin and Dol Guldur, and all they did was move.

Well i was thinking, since the three elven rings not only give the wielders extra power but also protect their areas: Rivendell is protected by Elrond's ring and Lothlórien was protected by Galadriel's ring, Maybe the Shire is protected by Gandalf's ring.

I mean he really has no place where he actually lives, but he seems to spend alot of time at the Shire, he loves the people there, he thinks the place is beautiful and if there was any place he wanted to protect it would be the Shire because the ring resided there.

Think of it, it's hardly ever been invaded, and it seems to be really hard to find for enemy's.
Also it was only invaded by Saruman after the one ring was destroyed which would have negated Narya's (the Ring of Fire) power and thus made it susceptible to invasion.

Nogrod · 07-13-2009, 08:24 PM

A nice idea Flame of Anor!

One could look at it that way. If there was a power in the ring to protect a certain place Gandalf could have decided on the Hobbitton - as he had no other clear favourites it seems. Well Thranduil's hall could be a tempting place for protection to compete with the Hobbitton... but anyway, not too far fetched.

Looking at the long calm with the hobbits it might be argued Gandalf's ring did it... but then again in the LotR it's said quite straightforwardly it was the rangers of the North who protected the country even if the inhabitants didn't know it.

Inziladun · 07-13-2009, 08:45 PM

Hm. Interesting premise. I agree that Vilya and Nenya seem to be actively wielded by Elrond and Galadriel in the defence of their respective abodes. I don't think that was the case with the Shire, however, even if Narya had the potential to provide a similar protection.
Sauron likely had known of the existence of Hobbits before the time of his capture of Gollum, but I doubt he had much more knowledge than that they did exist. He had returned to his stronghold at Dol Guldur around the year 1050 of the Third Age, when the Hobbits still dwelt near the Anduin. He would have been mainly occupied with gathering his strength then, though, and I wouldn't think he would have been able to do much information gathering. At any rate, most of the Hobbits apparently left around 1150, according to the Tale of Years. Therefore it doesn't seem likely he would have had much useful knowledge to aid him in finding the Shire. That's what he hoped to use Gollum for. It's also notable that, as Gandalf told Frodo, until the time of the War of the Ring he seems to have thought Hobbits beneath his notice and of no importance.
As for Gandalf using Narya, my suspicion is that in order to use its power as a means to hide the Shire, Gandalf would have been obliged to reside there, as Elrond and Galadriel did in Rivendell and Lórien. And keep in mind that he didn't know Bilbo's ring was the One until he made the journey to Minas Tirith to read Isildur's Scroll in 3017. When he learned of the Ring's true nature, Gandalf asked the Rangers to guard the Shire. That, plus the general unobtrusiveness of its inhabitants, was the Shire's protection.

Flame of Anor · 07-14-2009, 12:37 AM

Sauron was busy but for him with all his resources to take so long to find a place, just bewilders me.

The Rangers of the North were a big part of the protection of the Shire, but so were the citizens of Lothlórien and Rivendell to their respective homes, the I'm not saying the rings alone protect the places, they need soldiers or protectors but the rings just kinda ensure that the warriors win.

Nogrod · 07-14-2009, 01:23 AM

I think one needs to take a longer perspective here.

Defending a place with a Ring means committing one to the place for real I'd suppose (like in the cases of Elrond and Galadriel) as it is not any "instant magic" you can just put into use whenever you wish (like "puff, you're invisible!"). It means also rooting into that place, keeping it there and safeguarding it... and even if Gandalf loved the hobbits why would he have used such an extraordinary gift of the ring to protect the hobbits when there was nothing of interest for anyone there - none even for Gandalf himself until the things stated rolling and he realised the Ring was there - and then it was of course too late to protect Shire as the Nazgûl were already in there as well knowing the same thing...

So any speculation of Narya protecting the Shire should not speak of Bilbo or the master Ring but the decades before it was found... and there I think it would be possible... even if a bit unbelievable asthe Shire's safety can be explained by the remotedness of it and with the guardianship of the rangers more than well...

Tuor in Gondolin · 07-14-2009, 07:37 AM

An interesting idea. Of course, Sauron had no need or
interest to learn about or find hobbits before Gollum
was tortured, and Saruman had access to the Shire via
spies and purchasing (tobacco) agents early on.

The three rings might indeed be pictured as a sort
of "cloaking agent". Perhaps periodic visits by Gandalf
would be enough to psychologically discourage persons
from visiting it, while allowing for travelers such as dwarves
to pass by. Recall Gloin's and Thorin's contempt for hobbits
in UT:

Quote:

"What!" cried Gloin. "One of those simpletons down
in the Shire? What use on earth, or under it, could he
possibly be?"

Quote:

(Thorin) This is not advice, it is foolery! I fail to see
what any Hobbit, good or bad, could do that would repay me
for a day's keep, even if he could be persuaded to start.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 07-14-2009, 08:34 AM

Other than those who actively moved through the Shire, it doesn't seem that much anybody in Middle-earth had any significant awareness of their existence. The people of Rohan consider them a legend, the Ents don't even know they exist. I suspect that if some Elves didn't pass through the Shire en route to the Havens, and if the Dwarves did not travel through it, they'd have about as much awareness of them as the Ents or Rohirrim. Hobbits came to Sauron's attention only because of Gollum, and Gollum wasn't going to be much help locating the Shire, since he had never been there, and in his youth before the Ring, they lived in a different area. Moreover, there is in my mind a real question as to how much Sauron had truly "pulled himself together" by the late Third Age. Tolkien tells us he did have a body (not a beautiful one), and his mind was working well enough to focus on matters of war, but without the Ring, was he as strong or as sharp as he had been before?

Well, that's off the original topic. As to a link between the Shire's protection and Narya, I would agree with those who have said that Gandalf would need to reside there for Narya to be effective -- if it could have been effective at all. The power of the Three was in knowledge, understanding, and preservation, and unlike Lothlorien -- which Galadriel was attempting to preserve in a state akin to her memories of Valinor from her youth -- the Shire didn't require such an active intervention to keep it from the natural cycle of fading and dying in ME. The kind of preservation the Shire enjoyed was of a more mundane sort, which the Rangers provided. There did not appear to be anything extraordinary or "magical" in force. I believe that in the appendices, Tolkien says that before the end of the Third Age, it was suspected that two of the Three were in Rivendell and Lothlorien, and that many felt the third was probably with Cirdan at the Havens. I don't recall if he said it (the book is upstairs, and my knees don't care to make the climb at the moment

), but I presume that is because the Havens of the Third Age appear to be largely untroubled by forces of the Enemy. Whatever the case, there is no suspicion, even among those who know of its existence, that the Third is in the Shire. Perhaps Saruman, after he became aware of the fact that Gandalf had been given Narya, thought that he was using it to protect the Shire -- especially after he deduced that the One was there -- but if he did, Tolkien never mentions it.

Now, that went on longer than expected...

07-13-2009, 07:52 PM	#1
Flame of Anor Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 10	Narya and the Shire Anyone even notice how it was so hard for Sauron and the Nazgûl to find the Shire, even though Hobbits used to live near the Anduin and Dol Guldur, and all they did was move. Well i was thinking, since the three elven rings not only give the wielders extra power but also protect their areas: Rivendell is protected by Elrond's ring and Lothlórien was protected by Galadriel's ring, Maybe the Shire is protected by Gandalf's ring. I mean he really has no place where he actually lives, but he seems to spend alot of time at the Shire, he loves the people there, he thinks the place is beautiful and if there was any place he wanted to protect it would be the Shire because the ring resided there. Think of it, it's hardly ever been invaded, and it seems to be really hard to find for enemy's. Also it was only invaded by Saruman after the one ring was destroyed which would have negated Narya's (the Ring of Fire) power and thus made it susceptible to invasion.

07-13-2009, 08:24 PM	#2
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	A nice idea Flame of Anor! One could look at it that way. If there was a power in the ring to protect a certain place Gandalf could have decided on the Hobbitton - as he had no other clear favourites it seems. Well Thranduil's hall could be a tempting place for protection to compete with the Hobbitton... but anyway, not too far fetched. Looking at the long calm with the hobbits it might be argued Gandalf's ring did it... but then again in the LotR it's said quite straightforwardly it was the rangers of the North who protected the country even if the inhabitants didn't know it. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

07-13-2009, 08:45 PM	#3
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,035	Hm. Interesting premise. I agree that Vilya and Nenya seem to be actively wielded by Elrond and Galadriel in the defence of their respective abodes. I don't think that was the case with the Shire, however, even if Narya had the potential to provide a similar protection. Sauron likely had known of the existence of Hobbits before the time of his capture of Gollum, but I doubt he had much more knowledge than that they did exist. He had returned to his stronghold at Dol Guldur around the year 1050 of the Third Age, when the Hobbits still dwelt near the Anduin. He would have been mainly occupied with gathering his strength then, though, and I wouldn't think he would have been able to do much information gathering. At any rate, most of the Hobbits apparently left around 1150, according to the Tale of Years. Therefore it doesn't seem likely he would have had much useful knowledge to aid him in finding the Shire. That's what he hoped to use Gollum for. It's also notable that, as Gandalf told Frodo, until the time of the War of the Ring he seems to have thought Hobbits beneath his notice and of no importance. As for Gandalf using Narya, my suspicion is that in order to use its power as a means to hide the Shire, Gandalf would have been obliged to reside there, as Elrond and Galadriel did in Rivendell and Lórien. And keep in mind that he didn't know Bilbo's ring was the One until he made the journey to Minas Tirith to read Isildur's Scroll in 3017. When he learned of the Ring's true nature, Gandalf asked the Rangers to guard the Shire. That, plus the general unobtrusiveness of its inhabitants, was the Shire's protection. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 07-13-2009 at 09:09 PM. Reason: grammar correction

07-14-2009, 01:23 AM	#5
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	I think one needs to take a longer perspective here. Defending a place with a Ring means committing one to the place for real I'd suppose (like in the cases of Elrond and Galadriel) as it is not any "instant magic" you can just put into use whenever you wish (like "puff, you're invisible!"). It means also rooting into that place, keeping it there and safeguarding it... and even if Gandalf loved the hobbits why would he have used such an extraordinary gift of the ring to protect the hobbits when there was nothing of interest for anyone there - none even for Gandalf himself until the things stated rolling and he realised the Ring was there - and then it was of course too late to protect Shire as the Nazgûl were already in there as well knowing the same thing... So any speculation of Narya protecting the Shire should not speak of Bilbo or the master Ring but the decades before it was found... and there I think it would be possible... even if a bit unbelievable asthe Shire's safety can be explained by the remotedness of it and with the guardianship of the rangers more than well... __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

07-14-2009, 08:34 AM	#7
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	Other than those who actively moved through the Shire, it doesn't seem that much anybody in Middle-earth had any significant awareness of their existence. The people of Rohan consider them a legend, the Ents don't even know they exist. I suspect that if some Elves didn't pass through the Shire en route to the Havens, and if the Dwarves did not travel through it, they'd have about as much awareness of them as the Ents or Rohirrim. Hobbits came to Sauron's attention only because of Gollum, and Gollum wasn't going to be much help locating the Shire, since he had never been there, and in his youth before the Ring, they lived in a different area. Moreover, there is in my mind a real question as to how much Sauron had truly "pulled himself together" by the late Third Age. Tolkien tells us he did have a body (not a beautiful one), and his mind was working well enough to focus on matters of war, but without the Ring, was he as strong or as sharp as he had been before? Well, that's off the original topic. As to a link between the Shire's protection and Narya, I would agree with those who have said that Gandalf would need to reside there for Narya to be effective -- if it could have been effective at all. The power of the Three was in knowledge, understanding, and preservation, and unlike Lothlorien -- which Galadriel was attempting to preserve in a state akin to her memories of Valinor from her youth -- the Shire didn't require such an active intervention to keep it from the natural cycle of fading and dying in ME. The kind of preservation the Shire enjoyed was of a more mundane sort, which the Rangers provided. There did not appear to be anything extraordinary or "magical" in force. I believe that in the appendices, Tolkien says that before the end of the Third Age, it was suspected that two of the Three were in Rivendell and Lothlorien, and that many felt the third was probably with Cirdan at the Havens. I don't recall if he said it (the book is upstairs, and my knees don't care to make the climb at the moment ), but I presume that is because the Havens of the Third Age appear to be largely untroubled by forces of the Enemy. Whatever the case, there is no suspicion, even among those who know of its existence, that the Third is in the Shire. Perhaps Saruman, after he became aware of the fact that Gandalf had been given Narya, thought that he was using it to protect the Shire -- especially after he deduced that the One was there -- but if he did, Tolkien never mentions it. Now, that went on longer than expected... __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

07-14-2009, 12:37 AM	#4
Flame of Anor Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 10	Sauron was busy but for him with all his resources to take so long to find a place, just bewilders me. The Rangers of the North were a big part of the protection of the Shire, but so were the citizens of Lothlórien and Rivendell to their respective homes, the I'm not saying the rings alone protect the places, they need soldiers or protectors but the rings just kinda ensure that the warriors win.