Coincidence? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Might · 01-08-2009, 03:09 PM

Not a very complex topic this time really, I had a random thought 5 minutes ago and realised that there is an interesting coincidence concerning meteors in Tolkien's Silmarillion.

We know that the blades for Anglachel and Anguirel, the swords forged by Eol, came from a meteor. And we know that they were black.

Does this ring a bell?

Well, I immediately thought about the Black Stone of the Muslims, which is thought to have fallen from Heaven, so also as a meteor.

Do you think this is just a coincidence or did Tolkien take the Islamic belief into consideration perhaps? As I said, it was just a random thought...

Inziladun · 01-08-2009, 04:13 PM

For lack of any substantial evidence to the contrary, I'd have to consider it just happenstance.
Curiously, weren't the Stone of Erech and Elendil's tomb also black? And Orthanc as well.

*btw- like the new avvie*

Beregond · 01-08-2009, 04:32 PM

Interesting topic. I also don't have any facts to back up what I say, but I think meteors are the stuff of legends and stories everywhere. Their very nature, as objects seemingly sent from God out of the sky, would lend itself towards the mythic. Whether Tolkien was inspired by the Black Stone at Kaaba, or from some other legend (a Scandinavian one?) who can say? But the stone of Erech that Inziladun mentioned is more like to stone of Kaaba...

And that would be quite something if Orthanc was made of heavenly rock...what a massive meteor that would be!

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-08-2009, 04:38 PM

Yes, indeed; it's interesting that actually all stones of some importance in LotR&co, at least the ones I can think of, were black. But as for the Black Stone hypothesis... well, I cannot say if Tolkien would be one to do that; from just what I know, I would not consider it impossible. And maybe more probable connection in the case of Erech, for example (which was a cultic site by itself). In any case, it sounds nice as an idea.

The Might · 01-08-2009, 06:09 PM

Oh yeah, true! Totally missed the Erech stone...

The problem is that whilst the people in the area thought it had fallen from the sky, Isildur had actually brought it from Numenor.

How it had come by to exist in Numenor is unknown, of course it also may have been a meteor, but in the case of Eol's swords we know it for sure.

Still, nice ideas!

Beregond · 01-08-2009, 06:27 PM

Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place.

Inziladun · 01-08-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beregond

Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place.

You know, I've considered that myself. I wonder if it merits a new thread.

01-08-2009, 03:09 PM	#1
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Coincidence? Not a very complex topic this time really, I had a random thought 5 minutes ago and realised that there is an interesting coincidence concerning meteors in Tolkien's Silmarillion. We know that the blades for Anglachel and Anguirel, the swords forged by Eol, came from a meteor. And we know that they were black. Does this ring a bell? Well, I immediately thought about the Black Stone of the Muslims, which is thought to have fallen from Heaven, so also as a meteor. Do you think this is just a coincidence or did Tolkien take the Islamic belief into consideration perhaps? As I said, it was just a random thought... __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-08-2009, 04:13 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,038	For lack of any substantial evidence to the contrary, I'd have to consider it just happenstance. Curiously, weren't the Stone of Erech and Elendil's tomb also black? And Orthanc as well. btw- like the new avvie __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-08-2009, 04:32 PM	#3
Beregond Playful Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,251	Interesting topic. I also don't have any facts to back up what I say, but I think meteors are the stuff of legends and stories everywhere. Their very nature, as objects seemingly sent from God out of the sky, would lend itself towards the mythic. Whether Tolkien was inspired by the Black Stone at Kaaba, or from some other legend (a Scandinavian one?) who can say? But the stone of Erech that Inziladun mentioned is more like to stone of Kaaba... And that would be quite something if Orthanc was made of heavenly rock...what a massive meteor that would be! __________________ "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green."

01-08-2009, 04:38 PM	#4
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Yes, indeed; it's interesting that actually all stones of some importance in LotR&co, at least the ones I can think of, were black. But as for the Black Stone hypothesis... well, I cannot say if Tolkien would be one to do that; from just what I know, I would not consider it impossible. And maybe more probable connection in the case of Erech, for example (which was a cultic site by itself). In any case, it sounds nice as an idea. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-08-2009, 06:09 PM	#5
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Oh yeah, true! Totally missed the Erech stone... The problem is that whilst the people in the area thought it had fallen from the sky, Isildur had actually brought it from Numenor. How it had come by to exist in Numenor is unknown, of course it also may have been a meteor, but in the case of Eol's swords we know it for sure. Still, nice ideas! __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-08-2009, 06:27 PM	#6
Beregond Playful Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,251	Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place. __________________ "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green."