Gandalf is a fraud?!

[Lord Tataraus]

Greeting's my fellow LotR-fans, I have just recently joined this forum after a bit of lurking and I would like to see what the Barrowdowners have to say about this interesting perspective on Gandalf. For a bit of backstory, I frequent a RPG forum focusing on D&D. In one thread we were discussing how the Fellowship would translate into D&D terms. One the question of Gandalf there was much debate and it sparked one poster to present his view of Gandalf, here are his claims contained within two posts:

Originally Posted by Lord_Kimboat

Despite some of my criticisms in other posts, I am actually a fan of LotR. However, you might have to clarify a few things. First, are you trying to stat the characters from the films or the book? Are you trying for what the author intended or just what is observed?

One of the few things I dislike about LotR (the book as author intended) is how noble and righteous everyone and thing is. People respect Aragorn because he is the heir without having a reason of knowing that he is the heir or because he does anything noteworthy. Sam's respect for Frodo is almost fawning and is definitely part of some class structure as Sam is clearly tougher and usually has better judgement than Frodo.

Gandalf says he is a wizard but rarely (if ever) casts spells. The book also explains he is of some near godly race and everyone seems to accept this. However, being a little more cynical, we can see that Gandalf benefits from his reputation as a wizard and his actions fit most closely with those of a bard. He produces fireworks and illusions, he obviously has a great deal of charisma as he commands respect almost everywhere he goes and isn't afraid to bluff people either. He is even chalked up on knowledge skills.

Also, if you take only what is witnessed by others, it explains far better his fall in Moria and reappearance. He didn't fight the Balrog in an epic battle that "smote the mountainside" where he was then raised from the dead so that he could help a little more. No! He fell, but grabbed something below the bridge and managed to get to safety - or even cast a low level spell to stop him from falling to his death. He then escapes Moria but when confronted weaves a great story about what a powerful wizard he is.

Don't even get me started on why he has one of the rings for Elven Kings, when he is clearly neither.

second post:

Originally Posted by Lord_Kimboat

Okay, so my suspicious mind has Gandalf as the not quite so noble Bard who somewhat fraudulently claims to be a wizard so people respect him more. I mean come on, people in these forums will tell you that wizards, especially high level wizards with some cheesy race with LA, will pwn just about anything. While Bards can be beaten by three goblins, a stiff breeze and Fifi the Wonder Dog. I'd lie about it as well.

So, how does Gandalf get the ring? He goes down to the docks (yeah, nothing dishonest ever happens there) and a shipbuilder (or maybe even a stevedore, remember, Gandalf embellishes these things) says, "uh yeah, an Elf headed for the Haven's just gave me this ring. *looks around shiftily* He said he wouldn't need it any more and I could just keep it. But I don't really need it so you, a fine adventuring type should have it."

In short, a successful slight of hand roll and the ring now has a new owner. Enterprising Elven rogue, known to the local authorities as Ciridan, then unloads his magical merchandise for several thousand gold pieces to the first adventurer he can find before the previous owner notices its missing. This is probably one of the reasons why Gandalf doesn't show it off or even use it that much around Elves.

Now we all know the poem. Three rings for Elven Kings. Does it not strike anyone else as odd that none of these rings are actually owned by an Elven king?

Galadriel has the best claim. She is the ruler of a small, but perfectly functional kingdom. However, female kings are usually referred to as Queens.

Elrond has a ring but Rivendell is quite clearly a 'house' not a kingdom. Also, he is not exactly 100% Elven either.

Gandalf is clearly not an Elf (the lack of pointy ears is a giveaway) and seems lucky to own his own clothes much less a kingdom!

There is though, one Elven king around, Thirandiril - Logolas' father. Now I know the Tolkien fans will start jumping up and down at this point complaining about High Elves and nobility, etc, etc. However, we know that Thirandiril isn't exactly adverse to breaking the law. He did abduct and hold prisoner a party of Dwarves and a Halfling just for straying into his kingdom. Also, Legolas strikes me as an Elf of action rather than a stickler for niceties or fine points of heritage.

Thus I have a theory. Thirandiril certainly knows the poem and it doesn't say 'three rings for HIGH Elven kings', but just 'Elven kings'. He is an Elven king and thus wants this magical piece of bling for himself. He sends his boy to the nearest Elven ring that he knows about, Elrond with the message, "hand it over."

When Legolas gets there though, he discovers (or maybe Elrond points out) that Gandalf has a ring and is neither Elf nor king and that would be a much nicer present for daddy. Thus Legolas joins the party with a hidden agenda. Gandalf may have discovered this and thus fakes his own death to cover for it. When he is caught, he spins the story of dying and coming back naked (without the ring).

Granted, this is all from my very cynical mind and I find it much easier to attribute motives of self interest to people rather than ones of nobility. This may seem sad but if you don't believe me, try watching the news some time. Our politicians, our business people and even our holy men and women almost always have motivations of self interest. They will quite often resort to lies and deception as a first resort. Maybe Tolkein didn't see that or didn't want it in his world but it is what people are like and I have a hard time suspending my disbelief if people don't act that way.

Disclaimer: I have included all content of the posts in question save one sentence which was a direct response to a side-topic discussion. I don't support these views above, but would like to see what scholars of the works of Tolkien can come up with to either disprove or support this theory.

[alatar]

Some interesting points:

• And I thought that *I* was cynical...We never read about Mandalf, Gandalf's brother, as he never amounted to much, and was a typical person, unlike his more noble brother, who by being exceptional, became worthy of a story or two. (Name the thirtieth best soccer player...)

• Like who 'wrote' or prophesied the 'poem?' Or was it a simple statement of fact at a particular moment of time? Or, specifically, in regards to Gandalf not being a King, was rhyming placed before dry facts (which would explain Galadriel as well...but also may have been a ruse to confuse the enemy. "Galadriel," Sauron pondered, "Nah...she's a Queen, and so it must be Celeborn, but I'm getting no vibes from him...most confusing.")?

• Gandalf was able to create fire on Caradhras, which even a Dwarf could not do. He states, at that time, that he'd just given himself away, as anyone seeing a fire in such conditions, and having access to Who's Who in Middle Earth would know that only Gandalf could have done such a miraculous deed.

• Gandalf escapes the Balrog. The Balrog is never seen again. We could assume that the Balrog died, even if Lord Gravity were its slayer, and so we can place that on Gandalf's resume, as even if he simply tricked the Balrog, he did something few others could or did not. And how did the Bridge and Doorway (of Balin's Room) in Moria fall?

• After all is said and done, doesn't Gandalf dress Frodo and Sam just before they meet "King Aragorn?" That gets me, and maybe there're other examples, but we have this Fellow or Fraud, great and wise (or at least considered so) stooping to serve others. He rejects Saruman, who would not serve. Gandalf even pities those caught by Sauron. That's cool stuff.

• And lastly, I, being genetically predisposed to being suspicious, always get out my microscope when someone writes..."I am actually a fan of LotR." Just drink the Kool-Aid, and all paradoxes, discrepancies and other apparent oddities will disappear.

[Lalaith]

I just want to know more about this Thirandiril. He sounds hot.

[Eönwë]

The thing is, I don't think Gandalf really likes to use his magic. He's not really supposed to use it that much, anyway. And he's definitely not allowed to use it in a way which makes people afraid of him, and/or forces them into submission (like Saruman did).

I can picture the whole Thranduil (or as you call him "Thirandiril") thing, but I don't really think so.

[alatar]

What I like about LotR is that 'magic' is understated. As the Elves would say, it's not really magic as in the Potter sense, but just a subtler understanding of the world.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

What I like about LotR is that 'magic' is understated. As the Elves would say, it's not really magic as in the Potter sense, but just a subtler understanding of the world.

Exactly. Unlike D&D (wherein just any Tom, Dick and Harry Potter can sling spells), magic-use in Middle-earth is an inherent power, more akin to an innate physical ability (like the heightened acuities of the Elves). What the original poster (or rather, the poster the OP quoted) fails to understand is that using power against power was not part of Gandalf's mission; in fact, he and the other Istari ('wizard' being a handy Westron term that in no way really defines their character) were required to forego the elements of their true manifestation (which would be wholly spirit form), and became incarnate, that is, accept the bodily frailties of man. Their Maiaric powers were hooded and in some cases reduced.

The rest of the quoted poster's melange of misreadings betrays a lack of knowledge on the subject, and does not account for Gandalf's mention in numerous instances outside the Lord of the Rings (the Silmarillion, HoMe, Tolkien's letters, etc.) where his Maiaric presence is voluminously noted.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I just want to know more about this Thirandiril. He sounds hot.

What about his criminal tendencies....? Of course he is king.. he is the law..

Guess I will have to settle for Ciridan if I want a bad boy elf for myself then

This chap might have a future with the Grauniad though...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Guess I will have to settle for Ciridan if I want a bad boy elf for myself then

Isn't Cirdan a bit old, I mean, 15000 at the end of the third age. Who knows his age now? (7th age)

[Groin Redbeard]

This guy’s theory about how Gandalf obtained Narya is absurd! Cirdan gave it to him out of his own free will. I'm not sure if this guy is implying that Cirdan was leaving when he gave Gandalf the ring because he clearly wasn’t, he said that he would remain in Middle Earth as long as Gandalf stayed.

As for why Gandalf never used the ring it is quite simple: hide the rings of power from Sauron. All of the ring bearers did this, even the dwarves.

Also, this guy needs to learn how to spell Cirdan and Thranduil.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Isn't Cirdan a bit old, I mean, 15000 at the end of the third age. Who knows his age now? (7th age)

And Thirandiril (I don't believe this guy read the book at all - it is the spelling of someone who has heard the name not seen it..) wouldbe a babe in arms comparatively... but we established a long time ago

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...uds#post346289

that these Telerin guys have got a lot going for them....elf-husbands of choice of the Alpha females ... Thingol, Celeborn .. I rest my case...

Cirdan would have to lose the beard though... and actually..nah he is a sailor ... forget it.... spent too many parties bored to sobs by yotties...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I just want to know more about this Thirandiril. He sounds hot.

Ha ha.

[Gwathagor]

This guy's an idiot.

First, if he can't spell the names right, why would I be inclined to believe the rest of his assertions of fact? He clearly is not very familiar with Middle-earth.

Second, the poem is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Third, he just makes stuff up - stuff that has no apparent basis in anything Tolkien wrote.

Fourth, he doesn't understand that a wizard means something rather different to Tolkien and the rest of the pre-D&D world than it does to him.

This is more funny than anything else and belongs in the crackpot theory drawer, along with Bombadil's secret life as the Witch-King of Angmar.