Trollhammaren! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-26-2008, 04:24 AM

Trolls are brilliant, this I know. Tolkien's portrayal of Trolls, however, is ever-so-slightly disappointing to me. Traditional characterisation of Trolls is varied, and JRRT chose to go with the huge (though not gigantic) bloodthirsty beast, or in The Hobbit dim-witted lummox. Granted, we see much of the events through the eyes of Hobbits, who were unlikely to appreciate the full range of Trollish society, but I'd have liked to read about Tolkien's more objective vision of the Trolls.

In much Scandinavian folklore, which Tolkien knew a bit about, Trolls are far more humanoid beings. It's accepted to say that Trolls were made as counterparts to Ents, thus explaining their large size; but it would have been nice to see more of a blend of traditional Trollish traits in Tolkien's world. Especially as how there seem to be various types of Troll in Middle-earth: Stone, Hill, Cave, for example.

Trolls were said to be restless dead, or magical, or shapeshifters. They stole cattle and babies from the humans, and would trick them into marriage or take them as prisoners.

Perhaps JRRT thought these Trolls wouldn't fit into The Lord of the Rings but I'd say it would have explained the Trolls we encounter in The Hobbit who are able to talk with their prisoners. Tom, Bert and William could have been Northern Trolls, part of a society not created by any Dark Lord. Sauron could have recruited the most brutal, violent Trolls to his service, but others may have been unwilling.

Well, Trolls interest me anyway. Feel free to post comments of your own.

Groin Redbeard · 02-26-2008, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Trolls are brilliant, this I know. Tolkien's portrayal of Trolls, however, is ever-so-slightly disappointing to me. Traditional characterisation of Trolls is varied, and JRRT chose to go with the huge (though not gigantic) bloodthirsty beast, or in The Hobbit dim-witted lummox.

Not all trolls that Tolkien portrayed are stupid. I believe that there was a species of mountain trolls called the Olog-Hia. These trolls were so smart that they were able to develop their own language and society.

Which is as smart as trolls can get.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-26-2008, 11:15 AM

Using an article on the Barrow-Downs by the Barrow-Wight himself, I learn that the Olog-hai were Sauron's doing. They were bred by him and taught a rudimentary language. But to say that this is as smart as Trolls get is to miss the point of this thread. Trolls could have been more smart, or more anything, had JRRT wanted.

The Might · 02-26-2008, 02:00 PM

I like his trolls and that's that.
I think the part of this humanoid beings was taken by the Orcs and so it makes sense that trolls are more the heavy support units.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-26-2008, 02:40 PM

Aye, there's the Orc-as-humanoid idea. But if you want all your counterparts you could have Orcs/Elves as Evil/Good. Then you have Men and Trolls, the more morally ambiguous lots.

Rumil · 02-26-2008, 03:35 PM

How about the Troll in 'Perry the Winkle' from the Tales if Tom Bombadil? He seemed a fairly cheery type, the flipside of Bert et al. Also there's the Troll in one of Sam's songs that Tom regretted kicking.

We do get to se a few trolls in the Silmarillion (seventy that had a bad day when they tried to capture Hurin!!), but not in much detail.

Groin Redbeard · 02-27-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Using an article on the Barrow-Downs by the Barrow-Wight himself, I learn that the Olog-hai were Sauron's doing. They were bred by him and taught a rudimentary language. But to say that this is as smart as Trolls get is to miss the point of this thread. Trolls could have been more smart, or more anything, had JRRT wanted.

Well, Tolkien gave trolls the ability to speak and learn, that's pretty smart!

Speaking of the 70 trolls killed by Hurin, could it be that Morgoth's trolls were smaller and similar to the ones in the fairy tails? I always thought of them that way. How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

skip spence · 02-27-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Speaking of the 70 trolls killed by Hurin, could it be that Morgoth's trolls were smaller and similar to the ones in the fairy tails? I always thought of them that way. How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

Here's the quote from CoH:

"It is sung that the black axe smoked in the black blood of the troll guards... Seventy times he uttered that cry..."

Notice the "it is sung" and consider the fictional perspective. All the historywriters who recorded The Battle Of Unnumbered Tears knew was that the men led by Hurin were surrounded and finally slaughtered, quite possibly down to the very last man. But Hurin was bound, taken to Angband and tormented. When Morgoth released him much later he wouldn't have made up a boast story about how many trolls he slew the worst day in his life.

Still he was a hero for defying Morgoth and I think the (make-belive) historywriters probably used their creative freedom and filled out the blanks to make Hurin's last stand seem more valiant and glorious than it already was. It is more likely that when Gothmog and his troll guard arrived Hurin was quite overwhelmed and rather easily subdued and humiliated.

Eönwë · 02-27-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

Well, he was a very good warrior...

but I agree. No normal man could kill 70 trolls.*

*edit: but Hurin was no normal man

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-28-2008, 04:21 AM

That part also says that Orc arms grappled him after they had been cut off, or something similar. Implication is that Trolls and Orcs were fighting him at the time. He uttered the cry 70 times, but that could mean he killed 20 Trolls and 50 Orcs.

Gwathagor · 05-01-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Well, Tolkien gave trolls the ability to speak and learn, that's pretty smart!

Speaking of the 70 trolls killed by Hurin, could it be that Morgoth's trolls were smaller and similar to the ones in the fairy tails? I always thought of them that way. How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

How? Because he was THAT good. What's the point of mythic heroes if we don't let them do mythic hero things?

Regarding trolls and intelligence: there's a very wide variety of trolls in Middle-earth, and probably a corresponding variety of intelligence, aggression, etc. However, I DON'T think that the Olog-hai should be in any way taken as a typical sample, as they were a specially developed breed and only able to speak because Sauron souped 'em up. The Olog-hai are not some kind of success story about what Trolls can achieve if they try really hard or about Trolls' latent potential and intelligence.

Maybe I'll post again later after I've thought about this some more.

Galin · 05-02-2008, 02:56 PM

I'm not convinced the Troll-guard of Gothmog even included 70 Trolls.

I think Tolkien started with orcs (100), but reduced the number to seventy 'cause now there were 'some' Trolls in the mix -- and although the number was reduced, the feat was now arguably just as amazing, or even more so, given that Trolls were involved.

02-26-2008, 04:24 AM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Trollhammaren! Trolls are brilliant, this I know. Tolkien's portrayal of Trolls, however, is ever-so-slightly disappointing to me. Traditional characterisation of Trolls is varied, and JRRT chose to go with the huge (though not gigantic) bloodthirsty beast, or in The Hobbit dim-witted lummox. Granted, we see much of the events through the eyes of Hobbits, who were unlikely to appreciate the full range of Trollish society, but I'd have liked to read about Tolkien's more objective vision of the Trolls. In much Scandinavian folklore, which Tolkien knew a bit about, Trolls are far more humanoid beings. It's accepted to say that Trolls were made as counterparts to Ents, thus explaining their large size; but it would have been nice to see more of a blend of traditional Trollish traits in Tolkien's world. Especially as how there seem to be various types of Troll in Middle-earth: Stone, Hill, Cave, for example. Trolls were said to be restless dead, or magical, or shapeshifters. They stole cattle and babies from the humans, and would trick them into marriage or take them as prisoners. Perhaps JRRT thought these Trolls wouldn't fit into The Lord of the Rings but I'd say it would have explained the Trolls we encounter in The Hobbit who are able to talk with their prisoners. Tom, Bert and William could have been Northern Trolls, part of a society not created by any Dark Lord. Sauron could have recruited the most brutal, violent Trolls to his service, but others may have been unwilling. Well, Trolls interest me anyway. Feel free to post comments of your own. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-26-2008, 11:15 AM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Using an article on the Barrow-Downs by the Barrow-Wight himself, I learn that the Olog-hai were Sauron's doing. They were bred by him and taught a rudimentary language. But to say that this is as smart as Trolls get is to miss the point of this thread. Trolls could have been more smart, or more anything, had JRRT wanted. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-26-2008, 02:00 PM	#4
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I like his trolls and that's that. I think the part of this humanoid beings was taken by the Orcs and so it makes sense that trolls are more the heavy support units. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

02-26-2008, 02:40 PM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Aye, there's the Orc-as-humanoid idea. But if you want all your counterparts you could have Orcs/Elves as Evil/Good. Then you have Men and Trolls, the more morally ambiguous lots. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-26-2008, 03:35 PM	#6
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Cramsome bread How about the Troll in 'Perry the Winkle' from the Tales if Tom Bombadil? He seemed a fairly cheery type, the flipside of Bert et al. Also there's the Troll in one of Sam's songs that Tom regretted kicking. We do get to se a few trolls in the Silmarillion (seventy that had a bad day when they tried to capture Hurin!!), but not in much detail. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

02-28-2008, 04:21 AM	#10
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	That part also says that Orc arms grappled him after they had been cut off, or something similar. Implication is that Trolls and Orcs were fighting him at the time. He uttered the cry 70 times, but that could mean he killed 20 Trolls and 50 Orcs. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

05-02-2008, 02:56 PM	#12
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	I'm not convinced the Troll-guard of Gothmog even included 70 Trolls. I think Tolkien started with orcs (100), but reduced the number to seventy 'cause now there were 'some' Trolls in the mix -- and although the number was reduced, the feat was now arguably just as amazing, or even more so, given that Trolls were involved.