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Old 01-07-2008, 03:28 PM   #1
Eönwë
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Narya What of Curumo?

I know it says at the end of ROTK that Saruman was killed, but when his spirit left him, what happened? Does Tolkien mention it anywhere? I'm just curious, is all?
And if we'er already on that subject, what happens to gandalf when he reaches Valinor and what haappens to Radagast? (I know the two blue wizards never came back out of the East. But when it says that Radagast became too enamoured in the brds and beasts or something like that, it doesn't say whether he reached the white shores or not). Sorry for all the qestions, by the way.
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:37 PM   #2
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Why sorry? It's all very interesting! Personally I don't know anything more about Saruman's spirit, it is obvious that he was rejected, but what then? Cast into the Void?

Concerning Radagast, I am inclined to believe he remained incarnated, among the Men, so maybe he is still lurking around somewhere, not aging, but living - on the place he chose. Unless he made himself a Dark Lord or something, which I cannot possibly imagine, there was no reason for the Valar to be concerned with his fate - he did not complete what he was sent for, but he also seemingly did not want to return to Valinor, so he remained content where he was.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:17 PM   #3
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It is quite a strange idea, because there are aa fe loose threads left in LOTR, such as "What happened to the Ents?"(and the Entwives too for that matter). "What happened to the true Aulean dwarfs?" and so on. But he leaves personal things unsaid, for example about Legolas and Gimli, and where their adventures led them. Most of the personal stories are left where they are at the end of the story, with just a hint o a happy/bad ending. But we don't ever find out much about Radagasst te brown, and I don't think even Tolkien knew what happened to the Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando).
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:26 PM   #4
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It is quite a strange idea, because there are aa fe loose threads left in LOTR, such as "What happened to the Ents?"(and the Entwives too for that matter). "What happened to the true Aulean dwarfs?" and so on. But he leaves personal things unsaid, for example about Legolas and Gimli, and where their adventures led them. Most of the personal stories are left where they are at the end of the story, with just a hint o a happy/bad ending. But we don't ever find out much about Radagasst te brown, and I don't think even Tolkien knew what happened to the Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando).
He definitely said he did not know (see Unfinished Tales, he only says he "is afraid they failed"). Concerning Radagast, well, he was not that much of an important character, and since he was in his retreat among the wild animals even during the times of the War of the Ring and all the epic stuff and the only thing that ever drove him out of there (as far as we know) was a vocation from Saruman connected with the threat of the Nine, one should not be even surprised that we don't know more about what happened to him later: he, presumably, remained where he was all the time.
And concerning Gimli and Legolas, we are told quite enough about them in the Appendices, about their journeys together and Gimli's work with the Dwarves in the Glittering Caves, and in the end, they both left, Legolas built a ship and they presumably both reached Eressëa.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:31 PM   #5
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Answered by Tolkien in the UT:

Quote:
Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
Just as Sauron or the WK he had been reduced to impotence and was no longer capable of assuming physical form. However, should the Dagor Dagorath be true I am sure he would have repented and joined the good side, then again this is only pure speculation on my part.

As for all the other questions that are left more or less unanswered... don't you need some mysteries after all?

And as the Professor himself said in letter #144:

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And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:44 PM   #6
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Answered by Tolkien in the UT:
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Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
Oh yeah, but I guess the question would be "so where it was whithersoever it was doomed to go?" If it means "becomings pure spirit with no power, but wandering still around", like Sauron, that would make sense - yet what does being dissolved by the wind mean? I am aware that the mist that was visible was not the very essence of Saruman, only a phenomenon, visible to the hobbits around, but one keeps thinking about the question "and what if it really completely dissolved him in the way that he really was no more?" (In the meaning, because we know nothing can just disappear, even by the laws of physics, that he would be "blown" into the Void or something.) On the other hand, during the destruction of Mordor we see the big shadowy figure of Sauron disappear in a similar way (the scene is almost the same, only Sauron's departure is "bigger", as he still was on the top of his power at the time he is destroyed), so one can conclude that whatever happened to Sauron also happened to Saruman.


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Just as Sauron or the WK he had been reduced to impotence and was no longer capable of assuming physical form. However, should the Dagor Dagorath be true I am sure he would have repented and joined the good side, then again this is only pure speculation on my part.
*eyes shine* But actually, is there anything that supports this idea of yours? I mean, is it said anywhere who would take which side, or at least some general example from which you could judge this as probable?
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