Shell-shocked Frodo .... or .... PTSD in LOTR

[littlemanpoet]

Many of us are familiar with some of the latest thinking that much of Tolkien's World War One experiences were translated into the War of the Ring.

Frodo and Sam went through many of the same experiences as did foot-soldiers involved in trench warfare. Sam seems to have come through it all relatively unscathed, but Frodo is a mess. Did he come down with Ring-induced "shell-shock"?

The Vietnam era created a new term for the same thing: "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder". Is this what Frodo had?

What did Frodo and Sam experience that was like trench warfare?

What symptoms of PTSD and/or shell-shock did Frodo (and perhaps Sam) exhibit afterward?

Is the Ring responsible? Solely? In part? Not at all?

[Boromir88]

There is always one part in the book when I look and I can't help but say this is Tolkien remembering his war experience...or putting it in the story. And that is when Sam sees the dead Haradrim and starts to really think about him as a person:

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace - all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.~Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

I look at this and you really do get a sense that this is some sort of memory of war Tolkien had put in the story.

At first look I would be quick to down and squelch your surmise ...because of this:

Its real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion.~Foreward to LOTR

But if we look at this, it seems like Tolkien is saying that the main storyline doesn't resemble World War I (or II for that matter). Well if we look at that scene with Sam, that moment is not dealing with the main storyline. It's a step away from the story. It's Sam stepping back from the events of the story and reflecting. Basically the part where Sam sees the dead Haradrim has no importance on the storyline, or the War of the Ring at all. It is Sam stepping away and reflecting.

So, to get more onto the topic of PTSD, I think it's quite possible that we can see signs of PTSD with Frodo or Sam (or other characters):

An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience, but the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of experience are extremely complex, and attempts to define the process are at best guesses from evidence that is inadquate and ambiguous. It is also false, though naturally attractive, when the lives of the author and critic have overlapped, to suppose that the movements of thought or the events of times common to both were necessarily the most powerful influences. One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an expreience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918 all by one of my close friends were dead.~ibid

Tolkien goes on to reject the idea that the Scouring of the Shire was a reflection upon England after WW1, except some loose similarities at best. Anyway, if it is something that deals with the main plot/storyline, it would be hard to try to create an argument that there was any bearing on the World Wars. The Scouring of the Shire was an important and essential part to the story. However, when trying to find PTSD with the characters in the story, I think it would be entirely possible...as it wouldn't play into the big plotline of the story. Just as Sam reflecting and thinking about the dead Haradrim soldier did not play a part in the plotline of the story. It was Sam stepping away from the action for a brief moment and thinking about him as a person. So, naturally when I read that part, I automatically think 'this may be Tolkien's war experiences and memory coming into the story.'

[Essex]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Frodo and Sam went through many of the same experiences as did foot-soldiers involved in trench warfare. Sam seems to have come through it all relatively unscathed, but Frodo is a mess. Did he come down with Ring-induced "shell-shock"?

Yes. largely, but not solely to blame

The Vietnam era created a new term for the same thing: "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder". Is this what Frodo had?

that's a very good way of putting it.

Is the Ring responsible? Solely? In part? Not at all?

Remember that Frodo had the following to put up with even without the torment of losing the Ring:

1/ He was stabbed and almost died from an infected (and let's call it supernatural) wound

2/ He was stung by a large arachnid and was technically dead

3/ He came close to death by starvation if not for lembas bread The lembas had a virtue without which they would long ago have lain down to die.

3/ He lost a finger having it bitten off

4/ He possibly was overcome by sulphuric fumes from a Volcano


Of course Sam had to put up with 3/and 4/ as well.......

[Mithalwen]

Of course in the war in which Tolkien served, someone who laid down his arms and refused to fight stood a good chance of being shot at dawn . Many of those who suffered that fate would probably have been diagnosed with PTSD these days.........

[Lalwendë]

This is one I've had at before. At the bottom I've copied over some stuff that's interesting.

But yes, Frodo may indeed suffer from PTSD, I recognise all the symptoms in myself as I have it. Of course, Tolkien will not have known it as such, but he will have been aware of shell-shock and the effects of WWI on himself were quite profound as seen in his writing, both creative and in personal writing about the loss of his dear friends.

If you're wondering why Sam did not suffer, well, not everyone reacts in the same way to a stressful event. There's no way of predicting who will act in which way, but clearly Sam is one of those who does not react in an extreme way (which incidentally, you cannot help or prevent from happening - there's none of that unhelpful "pulling yourself together"!). But there are some significant differences between Frodo and Sam - note that Frodo had been repeatedly attacked and in near-death situations. I often wonder at just how cruel it was to allow the injured Frodo to set out out from Rivendell after what he'd faced on Weathertop...

I think though, that PTSD cannot be the whole story. It certainly rings a bell for me, but I know full well just how other people simply do not understand the first thing about the condition, so Frodo's suffering must also work on other levels.

Old thread with good stuff (I think)

And on that, an interesting essay: here.

Oh and a quote from me. This is where I first started thinking about the link.

Davem - this is something I really agree with. After I was diagnosed with PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) myself I viewed Frodo's sufferings in a whole new light. One of the aspects most clearly demonstrated is his pain on the anniversary of the attack, an anguish which cannot be cured, and which Frodo is unable to cope with. There is also Frodo's inability to accept the truth of what happened, that he was attacked and was not responsible; there was nothing he could do about an unexpected stabbing. He also acts out of character at stressful times - the best example being his refusal to give up the ring at Mount Doom.

Frodo's first reaction, that he may be maimed for life, rings a bell with me - it is the immediate sense of fear and regret. He then has nightmares, and imagines that Aragorn is one of the ringwaraiths; he is seeing the potential for trauma in other, harmless things. After his physical recovery, the trauma still remains to be brought to the surface under stressful circumstances, in situations which remind him of the attack, and on anniversaries.

As davem says, hobbits are not a warlike people and would never expect to be injured by a sword in an unprovoked attack, so this life event naturally takes a devastating toll on Frodo. Although I don't think PTSD was recognised until relatively recently (correct me if I am wrong), it is said that the widespread shell-shock of WWI was basically PTSD, and I don't doubt that seeing the effect that this had was translated into Tolkien's own writing when he wished to decribe the effects of the attack on Frodo.

[littlemanpoet]

I almost hate to belabor this one, but the faces of the dead that Frodo sees in the water in the Dead Marshes, is strongly reminiscent, so I've read, of the memories of WWI veterans speaking of seeing their dead comrades lying at the bottom of trenches, under water.

Brrrrr!!

The shrieking of the Nazgul apparently bears a striking aural resemblance to incoming mortar rounds and their respective effects on soldiers.

The spouts of reek blasted into the sky by Orodruin, causing night when it is day mirrors the smoke covered killing fields of war.

Even the orcs' comments and dialogue. "Don't you know we're at war?" ..... "Don't you know there's a war on?"

From Shephard, Ben, A War of Nerves: Soldiers and Psychiatrists in the Twentieth Century Cambridge, 2001:

On the Somme, shell-shock and 'nervous disorders of war', hitherto a margianl medical problem, became a major drain on manpower. According to the British official history, 'In the first few weeks [of July 1916] several thousand soldiers were rapidly passed out of the battle zone on account of nervous disorders and many of them were evacuated to England'. The inadequate official figures show that the numbers of men returned as 'shellshock battle casualties' -- suffering from 'shell-shock' after actually being shelled [...] tripled in the last six months of 1916 [...]. These are the only surviving British figures and do not cover 'Shell-shock Sick'. They probably need to be multiplied by at least three to give a real sense of the scale of the problem.

The cause of the condition, now known as PTSD, was the experience of a disturbing trauma that led to persisting recollections of that trauma over long periods of time. The "stressor" must meet two basic criteria: the situation must have mortal consequences, and the person's reaction to the situation must have been one of "intense fear, helplessness, or horror".

Does this fit Frodo? Consider the list that Essex has kindly contributed.

Symptoms:
(1) the reliving of the event in the form of nightmares and, particularly, flashbacks;
(2) the persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness;
(3) the changing of persaonl demeanor and behavior.

Are these symptoms exhibited by Frodo?

[Bêthberry]

Okay, I've enjoyed the posts here and in previous threads about Frodo. What I'm going to do is ask a step beyond.

What would be the story purpose in presenting this terrible after-effect of battle? What I mean is, does the story exist to portray this horrible effect on soldiers, or does the story use this to characterise Frodo? If the latter, is it a way to garner sympathy amongst readers for Frodo?

The other fascinating question which arises is how this psychologically modern understanding of the effects of the horrors of war on solders melds with the other aspects of the story which herald the warrior epic and the grand, marshalling effect of glorious death in battle.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Sam seems to have come through it all relatively unscathed, but Frodo is a mess.

I was fascinated to learn, in "Now It Can Be Told" by Philip Gibbs (WWI correspondant) some of the WWI details regarding shell shock, especially extreme shell shock.. The picture that stays in my mind was of soldiers (grown men) sitting glassy-eyed in a corner, rocking, clawing at their mouths and whimpering. When I read that I thought, "Beyond help and hope. Surely they'll be dropped off at Mom's with a brief apology, and forgotten."

I was very happy to read that this was not the case. They found that the men were greatly helped by putting them to work on-- ready for this?-- rabbit farms. Taking care of soft, non-threatening, small furry creatures, slowly brought the men around to being men again. Eventually they were greatly improved. (I can't say if they could return to life as they knew it before.)

Back to Frodo and Sam.

What, or whom, did Frodo now have, to take care of? He'd been so entirely focused on the Ring that he had nothing else in his sights. Sam, on the other hand, was taking care of Frodo. Constantly.

I think it's very significant that Bilbo AND Frodo went west. Frodo needed someone to care for. Bilbo was it.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I think it's very significant that Bilbo AND Frodo went west. Frodo needed someone to care for. Bilbo was it.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by Letter #246

Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake – it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved.

[Boromir88]

Here's the poem I was talking about...somebody has kindly pointed me in the right direction. It was written by Sigfried Sasson...I notice that I butchered it from my poor memory, but this should do it justice.

Does it matter?--losing your legs?...
For people will always be kind,
And you need not show that you mind
When the others come in after hunting
To gobble their muffins and eggs.

Does it matter?--losing your sight?...
There’s such splendid work for the blind;
And people will always be kind,
As you sit on the terrace remembering
And turning your face to the light.

Do they matter?--those dreams from the pit?...
You can drink and forget and be glad,
And people won’t say that you’re mad;
For they’ll know you’ve fought for your country
And no one will worry a bit.