I am the Mouth of Sauron.

[ninja91]

I want to try to clear something up about the capabilities of the Mouth of Sauron.

We know he is very powerful, and he may have been also very powerful in magic. But he was a higher rank than the Witch King, who was supposedly a level above Gandalf. But he seemed to cower before Gandalf at the Black Gate.

Is it known how powerful (in sorcery) the Mouth of Sauron really was?

[Thinlómien]

Personally I think his powers were (far) lesser than Gandalf's or the Witch-Kings. I think his position was more based on his skills of speech and on his intelligence than on his skills in sorcery.

But he was a higher rank than the Witch King . . .

Care to elaborate; what do you base your assumption on? Being the main ambassador or main represantive of Sauron is a very different job from being the Captain of the Army or a sort of steward to Sauron (in Angmar) - they're not very easily compared and they are of pretty equal importance. But if I had to say which one was of "higher rank" I'd undoubtedly go for the Witch-King. (That of course, is my personal opinion. After all, it all comes down to "how do you define 'higher rank'?" ... )

[Selmo]

I don't see The Mouth of Sauron as being "powerful" in the sense that Gandalf was powerful. He was a man, and , though twisted, he remained a man.

His power lies in his role as Sauron's messenger. He is obeyed because the orders he relays are Sauron's, not his own. I see him as a diplomat, negotiating with the nations to the East (was he the one Sauron sent to Erebor and Dale?).

From his reactions to Gandalf, I think that Gandalf's guess that The Mouth was expecting to become Sauron's regent in Gondor and Rohan was correct, so he must also have been an able administrator. Perhaps he was Sauron's Quartermaster-General, organising the housing, feeding and arming of the armies of Mordor, a task unsuited to orcs or Nazgul, orcs because of their limited inteligence and ill-discipline and the Nazgul being too valuable as weapons of war.
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[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I agree with Selmo - and with your point, Thinlómien, that we could hardly define ranks of some sort in this way. How would we compare, let's say, a minister of interior and an army general? That's similar, I think. About the titles, we also know that he was the (help me find the word - I don't know how it is in original) Lieutenant (??? insert correct word, please) of Barad-dur.

In what I don't agree with you, Selmo, is that MoS was not "powerful" in the "supernatural" sense. It is written that he learned great sorcery, which would probably mean the most powerful sorcerer besides Witch-King (or at least most powerful from the Men in this case). Not that he could stand up against Gandalf (certainly not after his rebirth), but then again, who knows? I can as well imagine a scene of Gandalf falling into the Pit of Khazad-dum after a battle with the Mouth instead of the Balrog. Well, that's maybe too much. But it would be nice, don't you think

And one last think, I like the idea of him being the one sent to Erebor (and Dale), I find it quite possible and I also thought about this possibility before. Although it is not for certain and I'm suspicious that all of Sauron's messengers look the same (some black guy on a horse), so that might have been anyone

[ninja91]

Well, I think that he may have a higher rank than the Witch King because he is the lieutenant of Barad-Dur itself. Is that not a rank higher than general of the Morgul-host? Even that is one of the foremost positions in the service of Sauron, although I think that Sauron's personal mouth is somewhat of a higher rank, although that does not mean that it's owner is more powerful than any other.

The following, courtesy of tuckborough.net, helps to explain why the Mouth might be indeed very powerful in the hand of sorcery.

"The Mouth of Sauron was of the race of Black Numenoreans - Men who were corrupted by Sauron in the Second Age. It is said that the Mouth of Sauron "entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again" (RotK, p. 164), but there is some question as to what this means.

Some say this refers to Sauron's return to Barad-dur in 3320 of the Second Age after the fall of Numenor. This would mean that the Mouth of Sauron was over 3,000 years old at the time of the War of the Ring, and that he had somehow prolonged his life by unnatural means."

"Unnatural means" I think refers to sorcery, of course, possibly as a gift from Sauron himself.

tuckborough.net's explanation goes further.

"The Mouth of Sauron was cruel and cunning. He learned sorcery from Sauron and he became familiar with the Dark Lord's mind. He rose through the ranks and became one of Sauron's most trusted servants. If Sauron had won the War of the Ring, the Mouth of Sauron would have been given Isengard and from there he would have subjugated Gondor and Rohan as part of Sauron's domain."

This definitely shows how high and powerful the Mouth really was.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yeah, I think that's it. Except...

Originally Posted by ninja91

Well, I think that he may have a higher rank than the Witch King because he is the lieutenant of Barad-Dur itself. Is that not a rank higher than general of the Morgul-host?

...I still think that this is something else. WK was much as the general of the Morgul-host, but he was also, how to call it, "prefect of Morgul". MoS was something like mayor of the capitol city, but nowhere it's written that he was higher rank than the Lord of Nazgul. After all, Denethor refers to the Witch-King as "the main captain of the host of Barad-dur". It may be metaphoric or his low knowledge (which I doubt, since he was referring to what he knew possibly verified by what he saw in Palantír), but this would seem that if there were any "ranks", WK is at the top. Which would mean, the Mouth is lower.
...Okay, I confess, I am racist. I think MoS was human so that he could not reach such a high rank as any Ringwraith.
But actually, I think MoS was more active in the "civil" section and WK had military rank, thus, you cannot compare them. So WK was the highest in the army ranks and MoS was... something else.