For a drearier, scarier, better ‘downs.

[Farael]

I was thinking about posting on the “Community Statement” thread, but then I realized that most of what I wanted to say was well…. Off-topic. With regards to that thread, of course. All I can say about Davem is that I didn’t particularly like or dislike him, and I was put off a little by his tone. I chose to simply steer away from him, as I got the feeling that he was not doing it on purpose but rather that it was his personality. And trust me, I know how that goes… I’ve rubbed many people the wrong way without even meaning to.

Enough about Davem, I’d really like to ask the (hopefully many) subsequent posters to leave that whole issue aside when you step in here.

Yo’, why did you write about Davem then?

Well, I believe that it was necessary to provide some background… although what prompted this idea was not Davem’s banning per-se but rather…

Originally Posted by Valier

If you want something in specific to happen or change then just say it.

And also the (several) comments about the quantity and quality of discussion dying down, which actually reflect one of my concerns, if perhaps for other reasons.

Well, guess what? I do want something to change, and I’d like to provide a space where we can suggest our ideas on how to make The Barrow Downs a better place for all of us. That is, unless the Barrow Wight decides that such an endeavor should only be undertaken by the administrative body of the ‘downs. And let it be noted that I believe it might just be the case. If the Barrow Down’s administration wanted a “comment box” they would have probably done it already, but what I want to propose is a little different.

Probably the best way to explain what I mean is with an example. (And if you have stuck with me through all of the above nonsense, you are a really patient and charitable soul)

Problem: The books discussion is slower than what I’d want it to be.

Possible Cause: The works of Tolkien are finite. Lord of the Rings is what, a thousand five-hundred pages long? I’m sort of guessing there, but what I mean to say is that it is very much possible for virtually all the “easy” topics to have been discussed. Now, there is probably an infinite number of new takes and new approaches that can be taken to the same piece of work, but sooner or later it becomes hard to find novel ways to talk about Tolkien’s works. That alone would explain partially why few new things have been cropping up. We’ve talked about everything! Or at least, many, many things. From who, what, which, when or where is Tom Bombadil to Legolas’ hair colour, if it’s there we’ve talked about it.

There is also another issue. It is frowned upon, and with good reason, to open up a thread discussing issues that have been talked about already. But I’ve seen a few (and mind you, you can probably count them with the fingers of your hand) good looking new threads that were quickly referred to an old, existing, dead thread and died as well. I am not implying that we should open a new thread for every little idea that pops up in our collective minds, but…

Possible solution: No, I will not say “allow us to open as many new threads as we want” but rather, how about drawing a line and saying “ok, topics that have not been discussed in the last (X amount of time) can be re-opened for discussion in a new thread”?

There should be some restrictions, such as (and just brainstorming here, feel free to add your own or comment on mine):
*The two threads should not have the exact same approach, even if they share the same topic.
*The first post of the thread should encourage discussion, not raise a question that could be answered by reading the old thread.
*There should be a considerable time gap between the last post of the old thread and the new thread. What would “considerable” be? Well, if both threads are very similar (but never the exact same), I’d suggest not less than a year, maybe more than that. If the topics are the same but the approaches are radically different, perhaps a couple months would do.

So that’s my suggestion. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it’s the best I can come up with. Yet here’s the (I think) great thing about this thread…. You are all invited to join in, comment on my perceived problem, its causes and suggest a solution. Two heads think better than one, so how much better would two thousand heads be, drawn from as many different places and backgrounds as we all are?

Hey buddy… you said this was not a comment box, but it sure looks like one

Well, it’s up to us not to make it go down that road. What I want to propose is that we discuss these issues just like we discuss a topic in the books section, with the lateral thinking we use to solve quizzes and with the jovial mood and the effort we put into a nicely done RPG post.

Ultimately it will be the Administrators’ job to decide if any idea proposed here is worth implementing, and perhaps most importantly, if it’s possible. I mean, it’d be great to have an encyclopedia of old threads where excerpts from the “Barrow Down’s gold” and links to the appropriate thread for further enlightment can be found… but how many man-hours would be necessary to compile only a tenth of the information in here? Or perhaps it’d be a good idea to assign a “mentor” to each “newbie” that comes in, but again is it doable? And most importantly, While I am sure that the Barrow Wight and the other moderators and administrators of this forum are interested in our input, it is solely their responsibility and ultimately their choice to “legislate” the rules and “enforce” them.

We can only suggest and, once we have developed a good-looking idea, perhaps PM someone so that the administrators can consider our idea. The point of this thread is to work out ideas among (potentially) all of us ‘downers before we submit them to the appropriate people, not to replace or in any way undermine the Barrow Downs’ staff authority with regards to rule making.

Having said that, let the discussion begin! And let’s try to talk about one topic at the time… since there’s been some concern expressed about the Books sub-forum, I think we should start on that, then at some point perhaps we’ll discuss something else.

[arcticstorm]

I agree with what you are trying to do here farael and I think it would be good to see some of the older topics able to be discussed again. But like you said, the works of Tolkien are finite and hard to work more with that what we have already done here in the books forum. But i think that in order to help the books forum, more threads need to be opened on the minor works.
I do not recall seeing very many of them ever posted in the books, and those that have been usually die fairly quickly, sadly. As some of his minor works are. in my opinion, better than even The Lord of the Rings.
All I am saying basically is that more time in the books fofrum should be invested in discussing these oft overlooked jewels.

[Farael]

While I agree on principle, there is one issue.... LoTR, The Sil and perhaps to a lesser extent The Hobbit are the most "popular" Tolkien books. Of the minor works (if that's indeed what they are) I've read Roverandom and Tales from the Perilous Realm, but they lack the deep background that LoTR has, which also allows much of the discussion.

Of course, if you have any good topic ideas on any of the tales told on the aforementioned, I promise I'll read them throughly and post something if I have indeed something to add.

Now that I think about it, I think it only takes one or two good topics to get the ball rolling... When I first came to the 'downs there were several interesting discussions in the books section, so I'd check there regularly... now I tend to check Mirth first, then RPG, and THEN books.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

What's wrong with posting on the old threads? Heren Istarion does it regularly, and it often triggers some interesting conversation. Since I don't personally care who started a thread or how long ago the last comment on it was made I'm usually quite happy to do that. I seem to remember that this is what the forum guidelines suggest as well, but perhaps those aren't the things to bring up just at the moment.

The problem is that our turnover of members is slowing now that film fever has begun to die down. It's inevitable that someone who's been around here for five or six years might have lost a bit of steam when it comes to certain issues, and there just isn't the influx of new blood there was in '04. The answer is simple: post well. If you can't think of a new thread, try looking at the old ones: I guarantee that nobody can remember them all, and even H-I can't have read every single one. I know for a fact that we left some issues unresolved, but lacked the right perspective to round things off. Even if you don't find inspiration in the musty archives, you'll get a different slant on matters. Some of my favourite members haven't been seen here in an age, and I know that their posts were well worth reading.

The oldest threads here are only six years old. How out-of-date can this sort of discussion get in six years anyway?

[JennyHallu]

arcticstorm,

If you feel there are great discussions to be had on Tolkien's minor works, then post a topic, start a discussion. There are no rules or policies limiting conversations concerning the minor works, and it is the policies of the forum which are, I believe, what Farael is targetting here.

If the Minor Works are not well-represented in the topics in the books forum, it is because no one has started threads concerning them.

Farael,

I wholeheartedly support your proposal concerning the books forum. This forum has enjoyed the long time support of many of its users, with archives going back for years. Books discussions have touched on a multitude of topics, and before the spiders disappeared it was a delight to follow them into dusty threads, many imported from the old forum, where it was common to find the newest post was in 2002.

Now, it is an incredible and an exciting thing that there are still many active members here who took part in these four-year-old discussions, but it must be remembered that the internet is an active and dynamic medium, and I think we here should reflect that.

I feel that there are many members in my position: Though I have quickly risen to a position of high reputation, and, I hope, respect, I have only been truly active in the Mirth and RPG fora, though I have posted occasionally in Books. Why have I not posted there more often? There are two main reasons.

1. Though I am well-read, and a practiced debator (Quite literally: I spent four years competing in formal debate like less nerdy children compete in sports.), my Tolkien scholarship is not up to the level of many in this forum. Topics and discussions that are old-hat to many of the experts who participate (and have, for years, participated) are yet new and fascinating to me. The more esoteric discussions the forum has, in recent years, focussed on, are challenging to those rich in Tolkien knowledge, but so far above my head that I can participate with little more than occasional comments.
2. It is more than intimidating to append my neophyte thoughts onto discussions the elite of this forum have long-ago dismissed as complete. And it is thoroughly squelching to ask a question to have it brushed aside as so much chaff. "I'm sorry, we've already covered that: you can read our opinions here..."

I believe that a thread or question should be allowed to arise anew.


I have a second proposal, but I shall not clutter this response to Farael's excellent proposal. I'll post again later.

EDIT: Squatter, look again at the new members. There was a large influx of new posters in the early part of this year, including myself.

[Macalaure]

Those are good points you raise, Farael and Jenny. I've been thinking similar for some months already, so I think this particular problem is completely independant of the davem-incident, but not much less important to solve.

I feel there is some sort of shift in the community of the Downs. There are the scholars on the one side, and there are the people who can be found in Mirth and Quizes or RPGs mainly and rarely or never contribute to the discussions on the other. I've heard many say that they would like to post more in the Books, but nevertheless they rarely do. I think Farael and Jenny already give the reason, so I won't repeat. We have the N&N board for newbies, we have The Books for the scholars, but what about the 'apprentices'? People like Farael, Jenny, me and many, many others, who are (far) beyond 'Why didn't the eagles bring the Ring to Mordor?'-questions but who struggle to follow, let alone contribute to, the scholarly discussions. It would be a drastic measure, but why not create a fourth discussion board, for us 'Wizard Pupils'? It would be a way to drag the semi-educated back into discussing Tolkien and Middle-earth instead of leaving them to waste ( ) their time in the Mirth. Of course I don't mean to exclude the scholars from that board. They would be as welcome as they're in N&N to spread their knowledge. But on 'WP' (or whatever to call it) they would be less intimidating.

We have a lot of members who are learned enough for good discussions, but not for the scholarly. We should find a way to make them discuss more - at the level of their ability. How to exactly achieve it is not important. In the long term the scholar discussions will benefit from this, too, I'm convinced.

[Boromir88]

But on 'WP' (or whatever to call it) they would be less intimidating.~Mac

Never ever feel intimidated by the discussions in the books forum, or the people that do the 'discussing.' If you've got some input, come in and put it out there. We can all learn something from the very oldest Tolkien reader, to the very youngest to the books.

We all make slip-ups and mistakes. So, if you do make an error, and somebody else corrects it, don't feel ashamed or embarassed...accept it as a learning experience and realize that the person was only trying to help you further understand.

I had an old signature about steps to take to make yourself look smarter than you truly are.

1) Only talk about the stuff you know
2) Admit it when you make a mistake
3) Agree with me

Ok. so #3's a joke (or is it?) but 1 and 2 I still try to stick to as much as possible.