Reason Behind The Decline Of Arnor And The Rise Of Gondor. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Arathul · 09-01-2006, 01:40 AM

The keeping of the line of Isildur pure and unbroken allowed King Elessar to reunite the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in T.A. 3019. However, my opinion for this is that the fall of Arnor was directly related to the Northern Numenorean’s refusal to intermarry and intermingle with indigenous Men of Middle-earth.

To make a case for this idea, I need to show that:
A) The Northern Line of Isildur did not intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
B) The Southern Line of Anarion did intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
C) The intermingling saved Gondor
D) The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor.

The Northern Line did not intermarry
This is fairly straightforward and easy to confirm. Aragorn, the last of the purely Northern Line, is described as “the thirty-ninth Heir of Isildur in the direct line.”(1) Gandalf(2) and Elrond(3) confirm this as well. “It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son.”(4) If there still is any doubt of the lineage of the women these sons married, they are laid to rest with an account of the parents of King Elessar. His father Arathorn was directly descended from Isildur, of course, and his mother was Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was descended from Aranarth, the First Chieftan, who was himself descended from Isildur.(5) The only trace of non-Numenorean blood that can be traced would be Arvedui’s wife Firiel, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. Ondoher traced his lineage back to King Eldacar, who was half Rhonovianian.(6)

The Southern Line did intermarry
This is also easy to confirm. A great deal of information is given regarding Valacar’s marriage to Vidumavi, princess of Rhovanion. Their son, Eldacar (Vinitharya), came to the throne of Gondor and survived the Kinstrife. Yet other Numenoreans in Gondor had previously intermarried: “For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race.”(7) More explicitly, “after the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men.”(8)

The intermingling saved Gondor
This is the first of my ideas that may need some hard proofs to convince. To begin with, we know that war never ceased on their borders.(9) Gondor was mostly victorious, although their power waxed in the eleventh century. By the thirteenth, when the Kinstrife erupted over Eldacar, Gondor had faced two centuries of slow decline. Gondor never fully recovered from the Kinstrife. Many of the Dunedain were slain, and some fled to Umbar and Harad because they refused to acknowledge Eldacar. There were many Numenoreans killed or departed, and the records clearly state that “the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.”(10)

Gondor clearly needed replenishing, because in the years that followed great evils rapidly followed upon the heels of one another. Plague, wars with Umbar, and the invasions of the Wainriders beset Gondor from the fifteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Things reached a low point in the twentieth, when the general Earnil of the Southern Army alone saved Gondor from being overwhelmed from the East and South.

Throughout this long time period the descendents of the Kings had become few. Some were killed in the ceaseless wars, some did not marry, some fled to Umbar out of fear, and some “renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Numenorean blood.”(11)

This intermingling had two effects. First, it ended up destroying the Southern Line. No claimant of pure blood could be found. Second, it saved the nation of Gondor. I have already quoted the “replenishment” statement. Gondor needed immigration and new blood to survive the constant threats and attacks. Immigration came from the North, as we know, but there was also intermingling that had gone on in Lamedon and other provinces of Gondor that were on the southern edge of the White Mountains.(12) Without this help and intermingling, there was little chance that the Exiles could have survived.

The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor
The Numenoreans in the North had always been in lesser number than in the South. Before the Drowning, the colonies of the Faithful were at Tharbad in the North and at Pelargir and the surrounding areas in the South.(13) Pelargir was the main haven, as is clearly stated. During the Drowning, four ships of Elendil came to the North while five ships of Isildur and Anarion came to the South.(14) Moreover, after the Fall of Sauron and the End of the Second Age, a great deal of the Northern Dunedain were slain at the Gladden Fields.(15)

The Northern Kings therefore ruled over a lesser proportion of Numenoreans and a greater proportion of indigenous Men of Middle-earth, or Men of the Twilight. There had been Men in Eriador since the Elder Days, and the Numenoreans claimed lordship over them.(16) Since the Northern Dunedain were fewer in number, it is conceivable that they were more jealous of their lineage, and had been less likely to intermarry with those of non-Numenorean descent, and this may help explain why the Northern Line survived three thousand years.

It may also be the reason why the nation of Arnor fell. Arnor was beset from Angmar, as Gondor was from the East and South. However, Arnor never attempted to ask for aid, as Gondor did multiple times. Annuminas never attempted to contact the Men of Wilderland, as Minas Tirith did. It may have been impossible, as the Mountains were held by Angmar. Men to the South of Eriador were hostile to the Numenoreans.(17) The only help that was available was the remnant of the Noldor in Rivendell or the Havens. Not only were these Elves greatly diminished, the Elves had never intermingled with Men in any lasting form.

Arnor was alone and beset by external and internal calamities. The plague rolled through Eriador, the witch king attacked it from the East, and the sons of Earendur split Arnor into three because of “dissention.” This in and of itself may be the greatest calamity to befall the North, yet unfortunately the Professor gives us only a fragment of a sentence to explain it. Arnor faced nothing worse than Gondor did -–in fact Gondor may have faced worse challenges. Yet Gondor had something Arnor did not – the ability and the willingness to ask for immigration and outside aid from Men of non-Numenorean descent. This was the final ultimate cause of the fall of Arnor.

The Mouth of Sauron · 09-01-2006, 03:32 AM

That plus the Weathertop Bank increasing interest rates month by month .

I am the Mouth of Sauron .

Snowdog · 08-31-2010, 12:12 AM

Great essay Arathul! Too bad the only reply so far was crap.

With the Northern Dunedain not intermingling with the locals of lesser blood, the question of numbers of men and women comes into play. How many were there at say, the height of Arnor in Elendil's day? Since its given that there was a gradual diminishing in Arnor, from internal dissension and outside forces to the point that the ruling seat was moved from the lake-shore city of Annuminas to the fortress city of Fornost, and the kingdom of Arnor was divided into three in the year 863 of the 3rd Age, with Rhuadur to the east being probably the most mixed population with the hillmen. Cardolan was spread over the rollling southern lands to Tharbad, and was primarily Dunedain though they likely had dealings with the north reach of Dunland. Arthedain remained the strongest state and likely had the most Dunedain population. All three borders met at Amon Sul, or Weathertop, where one of the powerful Palantiri was ensconced.

The north did not have a strong race of men outside the Dunedain which to even really consider intermingling with. The Northmen of Rhovanion were a proud and fierce people in their own right, and probably the the strongest men friendly to the west without being directly from any of the three houses of the Edain. I have to agree that this intermingling in Gondor, despite causing the Kin-Strife, did lead to a strengthening of Gondor with greater numbers of population, and therefore, soldiers to hold the line on Mordor, at the cost of length of lifespan.

Great subject this! I need to finish my tale of the Kin Strife...

Just an informational edit here to inform everyone here that this essay was written by 'Thorin' on Minas Tirith in September 2003. I didn't say anything a few years back when I bumped this as I was hoping there would be more discussion on it. There was, which is a good thing. At the time I let Thorin know that I read and commented on his work he copy/pasted here, assuming that Arathul was his name on this board. It was not as he said he had never registered on Barrow Downs. Thorin was irritated a bit that his post was copy/pasted from another board, but chuffed that there was more discussion on the topic.

Kuruharan · 09-09-2010, 08:03 PM

While I don't necessarily disagree with your contention, I do think that was only one factor of many.

I think the most important reason for the decline of Arnor was its poor strategic situation. It was a large, flat and virtually indefensible country with a sparse population that was spread too thinly over its territory. I think it would have struggled mightily even without the external pressure of Angmar.

Gondor, by comparison, was more favorably located and more defensible, even in spite of its long stretches of coastland.

Inziladun · 09-09-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think the most important reason for the decline of Arnor was its poor strategic situation. It was a large, flat and virtually indefensible country with a sparse population that was spread too thinly over its territory. I think it would have struggled mightily even without the external pressure of Angmar.

Without the Witch-king though, who would Arnor have "struggled mightily" against? Those hill-men in Rhudaur? I don't see them as any threat to Arnor without the WK.

And I think they could have mastered Angmar , or at least held out much longer than they did, without their infighting.

Kuruharan · 09-09-2010, 08:30 PM

The tendency to infight and localize is what they would and did struggle against.

A point validated by the fact that Arnor already had fragmented before the appearance of the Witch-king. Arnor broke up in 861. The Witch-king didn't appear until 1300.

Without the Witch-king perhaps the situation would have stabilized into three successor states, but Arnor as a whole was doomed from the beginning because of geography and demographics.

Makes one wonder if things up north were really so hunky-dory during the Fourth Age after all...

09-01-2006, 01:40 AM	#1
Arathul Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 16	Reason Behind The Decline Of Arnor And The Rise Of Gondor. The keeping of the line of Isildur pure and unbroken allowed King Elessar to reunite the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in T.A. 3019. However, my opinion for this is that the fall of Arnor was directly related to the Northern Numenorean’s refusal to intermarry and intermingle with indigenous Men of Middle-earth. To make a case for this idea, I need to show that: A) The Northern Line of Isildur did not intermarry with non-Numenoreans. B) The Southern Line of Anarion did intermarry with non-Numenoreans. C) The intermingling saved Gondor D) The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor. The Northern Line did not intermarry This is fairly straightforward and easy to confirm. Aragorn, the last of the purely Northern Line, is described as “the thirty-ninth Heir of Isildur in the direct line.”(1) Gandalf(2) and Elrond(3) confirm this as well. “It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son.”(4) If there still is any doubt of the lineage of the women these sons married, they are laid to rest with an account of the parents of King Elessar. His father Arathorn was directly descended from Isildur, of course, and his mother was Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was descended from Aranarth, the First Chieftan, who was himself descended from Isildur.(5) The only trace of non-Numenorean blood that can be traced would be Arvedui’s wife Firiel, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. Ondoher traced his lineage back to King Eldacar, who was half Rhonovianian.(6) The Southern Line did intermarry This is also easy to confirm. A great deal of information is given regarding Valacar’s marriage to Vidumavi, princess of Rhovanion. Their son, Eldacar (Vinitharya), came to the throne of Gondor and survived the Kinstrife. Yet other Numenoreans in Gondor had previously intermarried: “For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race.”(7) More explicitly, “after the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men.”(8) The intermingling saved Gondor This is the first of my ideas that may need some hard proofs to convince. To begin with, we know that war never ceased on their borders.(9) Gondor was mostly victorious, although their power waxed in the eleventh century. By the thirteenth, when the Kinstrife erupted over Eldacar, Gondor had faced two centuries of slow decline. Gondor never fully recovered from the Kinstrife. Many of the Dunedain were slain, and some fled to Umbar and Harad because they refused to acknowledge Eldacar. There were many Numenoreans killed or departed, and the records clearly state that “the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.”(10) Gondor clearly needed replenishing, because in the years that followed great evils rapidly followed upon the heels of one another. Plague, wars with Umbar, and the invasions of the Wainriders beset Gondor from the fifteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Things reached a low point in the twentieth, when the general Earnil of the Southern Army alone saved Gondor from being overwhelmed from the East and South. Throughout this long time period the descendents of the Kings had become few. Some were killed in the ceaseless wars, some did not marry, some fled to Umbar out of fear, and some “renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Numenorean blood.”(11) This intermingling had two effects. First, it ended up destroying the Southern Line. No claimant of pure blood could be found. Second, it saved the nation of Gondor. I have already quoted the “replenishment” statement. Gondor needed immigration and new blood to survive the constant threats and attacks. Immigration came from the North, as we know, but there was also intermingling that had gone on in Lamedon and other provinces of Gondor that were on the southern edge of the White Mountains.(12) Without this help and intermingling, there was little chance that the Exiles could have survived. The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor The Numenoreans in the North had always been in lesser number than in the South. Before the Drowning, the colonies of the Faithful were at Tharbad in the North and at Pelargir and the surrounding areas in the South.(13) Pelargir was the main haven, as is clearly stated. During the Drowning, four ships of Elendil came to the North while five ships of Isildur and Anarion came to the South.(14) Moreover, after the Fall of Sauron and the End of the Second Age, a great deal of the Northern Dunedain were slain at the Gladden Fields.(15) The Northern Kings therefore ruled over a lesser proportion of Numenoreans and a greater proportion of indigenous Men of Middle-earth, or Men of the Twilight. There had been Men in Eriador since the Elder Days, and the Numenoreans claimed lordship over them.(16) Since the Northern Dunedain were fewer in number, it is conceivable that they were more jealous of their lineage, and had been less likely to intermarry with those of non-Numenorean descent, and this may help explain why the Northern Line survived three thousand years. It may also be the reason why the nation of Arnor fell. Arnor was beset from Angmar, as Gondor was from the East and South. However, Arnor never attempted to ask for aid, as Gondor did multiple times. Annuminas never attempted to contact the Men of Wilderland, as Minas Tirith did. It may have been impossible, as the Mountains were held by Angmar. Men to the South of Eriador were hostile to the Numenoreans.(17) The only help that was available was the remnant of the Noldor in Rivendell or the Havens. Not only were these Elves greatly diminished, the Elves had never intermingled with Men in any lasting form. Arnor was alone and beset by external and internal calamities. The plague rolled through Eriador, the witch king attacked it from the East, and the sons of Earendur split Arnor into three because of “dissention.” This in and of itself may be the greatest calamity to befall the North, yet unfortunately the Professor gives us only a fragment of a sentence to explain it. Arnor faced nothing worse than Gondor did -–in fact Gondor may have faced worse challenges. Yet Gondor had something Arnor did not – the ability and the willingness to ask for immigration and outside aid from Men of non-Numenorean descent. This was the final ultimate cause of the fall of Arnor.

08-31-2010, 12:12 AM	#3
Snowdog Emperor of the South Pole Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim Posts: 647	Great essay Arathul! Too bad the only reply so far was crap. With the Northern Dunedain not intermingling with the locals of lesser blood, the question of numbers of men and women comes into play. How many were there at say, the height of Arnor in Elendil's day? Since its given that there was a gradual diminishing in Arnor, from internal dissension and outside forces to the point that the ruling seat was moved from the lake-shore city of Annuminas to the fortress city of Fornost, and the kingdom of Arnor was divided into three in the year 863 of the 3rd Age, with Rhuadur to the east being probably the most mixed population with the hillmen. Cardolan was spread over the rollling southern lands to Tharbad, and was primarily Dunedain though they likely had dealings with the north reach of Dunland. Arthedain remained the strongest state and likely had the most Dunedain population. All three borders met at Amon Sul, or Weathertop, where one of the powerful Palantiri was ensconced. The north did not have a strong race of men outside the Dunedain which to even really consider intermingling with. The Northmen of Rhovanion were a proud and fierce people in their own right, and probably the the strongest men friendly to the west without being directly from any of the three houses of the Edain. I have to agree that this intermingling in Gondor, despite causing the Kin-Strife, did lead to a strengthening of Gondor with greater numbers of population, and therefore, soldiers to hold the line on Mordor, at the cost of length of lifespan. Great subject this! I need to finish my tale of the Kin Strife... Just an informational edit here to inform everyone here that this essay was written by 'Thorin' on Minas Tirith in September 2003. I didn't say anything a few years back when I bumped this as I was hoping there would be more discussion on it. There was, which is a good thing. At the time I let Thorin know that I read and commented on his work he copy/pasted here, assuming that Arathul was his name on this board. It was not as he said he had never registered on Barrow Downs. Thorin was irritated a bit that his post was copy/pasted from another board, but chuffed that there was more discussion on the topic. Last edited by Snowdog; 10-27-2013 at 09:25 AM. Reason: to add the last paragraph

09-09-2010, 08:03 PM	#4
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	While I don't necessarily disagree with your contention, I do think that was only one factor of many. I think the most important reason for the decline of Arnor was its poor strategic situation. It was a large, flat and virtually indefensible country with a sparse population that was spread too thinly over its territory. I think it would have struggled mightily even without the external pressure of Angmar. Gondor, by comparison, was more favorably located and more defensible, even in spite of its long stretches of coastland. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

09-09-2010, 08:30 PM	#6
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	The tendency to infight and localize is what they would and did struggle against. A point validated by the fact that Arnor already had fragmented before the appearance of the Witch-king. Arnor broke up in 861. The Witch-king didn't appear until 1300. Without the Witch-king perhaps the situation would have stabilized into three successor states, but Arnor as a whole was doomed from the beginning because of geography and demographics. Makes one wonder if things up north were really so hunky-dory during the Fourth Age after all... __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

09-01-2006, 03:32 AM	#2
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	That plus the Weathertop Bank increasing interest rates month by month . I am the Mouth of Sauron .