Sauron's Armies

Any idea how big Sauron's armies were in size? The movies suggest about 30,000 took to the Pelennor Fields, while another 10,000 remaining in Mordor. The book however suggests that about ten times the number which Gandalf & his 10,000 soldiers sent to the gates of Mordor was the remaining Mordor army. It also seems odd to me that Saruman was able to build an army of 10,000 ferocious Uruk-Hai, while Sauron's orcs were just mere goblins.

[ninja91]

As far as I know, there were around 250,000 at the Pelennor fields, and there was a countless number securing Mordor. Dont pay attention to the numbers that the movies give you, although they are right in one way: there were around "10,000 strong" assaulting Helm's Deep.

Originally Posted by ninja91

As far as I know, there were around 250,000 at the Pelennor fields, and there was a countless number securing Mordor. Dont pay attention to the numbers that the movies give you, although they are right in one way: there were around "10,000 strong" assaulting Helm's Deep.

250,000??! The size of that army seems impossible to mass together. Where did you find that out? Even the great army of Rome (which lost to Hannibal of Carthage) had just 80,000 strong soldiers.

[Macalaure]

The Atlas of Middle-earth says that 11250 fought against at least 45000 orcs, Haradrim etc. on the fields of the Pelennor.

I don't think we are ever told how many orcs still were left in Mordor, because simply nobody could know for sure.

At the Morannon about 6000 fought against an unknown, but vast number of enemies.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

As far as the Battle of Pelennor Fields, I have heard that there were 100,000, 200,000, 250,000, 300,000, and 600,000 Sauronic forces. All of those numbers came from people who worked on the film, during various behind-the-scenes features and interviews.

So I don't have a clue what the real number is as far as that goes. Ten thousand is about right for Helm's Deep, though. I don't know how many good guys are at the Battle of the Morannon, but it sure doesn't seem to be as many as six thousand.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Any idea how big Sauron's armies were in size? The movies suggest about 30,000 took to the Pellenor Fields, while another 10,000 remaining in Mordor. The book however suggests that about ten times the number which Gandalf & his 10,000 soldiers sent to the gates of Mordor was the remaining Mordor army. It also seems odd to me that Saruman was able to build an army of 10,000 ferocious Uruk-Hai, while Sauron's orcs were just mere goblins.

Where did you observe the "30,000" number? When PJ talks about the army that attacks Minas Tirith, he says something like there are at least 200,000 orcs (of the various tribes) there. You can verify his number by counting individuals in one of their formations, then multipying by the number of those formations.

It's definitely more than 30,000. Why, any backwoods maia could show as many....

Originally Posted by alatar

Where did you observe the "30,000" number? When PJ talks about the army that attacks Minas Tirith, he says something like there are at least 200,000 orcs (of the various tribes) there. You can verify his number by counting individuals in one of their formations, then multipying by the number of those formations.

It's definitely more than 30,000. Why, any backwoods maia could show as many....

I compared the estimated 30,000 orcs (& only orcs) at the Pelennor fields as seen in the film to that of the 10,000 Uruk-Hai army at Helm's Deep. It does seem to me that about 3 times the numer for the former to the latter is about right. Certainly not 200,000, if you use that logic.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I compared the estimated 30,000 orcs (& only orcs) at the Pelenor fields as seen in the film to that of the 10,000 Uruk-Hai army at Helm's Deep. It does see to me that about 3 times the numer for the former to the latter is about right. Certainly not 200,000, if you use that logic.

Not exactly sure what you mean.

I'm not sure of the 10,000 at Helm's Deep. Having watched the Battle of Helm's Deep for the SbS, it seems that no matter the number of Uruks slain, which seemingly a warrior could not help but add to the count (and don't get me started about the lack of Elvish kills!), at the end, as the Uruks make for the forest, there still seems to be way too many.

Not that I'm obsessed, but just want, like in other matters, that there be some consistency and rationality to the movie - and don't say that, well, we have wizards and balrogs, so why do we need consistency/rationality.

I mean that compared to the 10,000 Uruks at Helm's Deep, I am not at all convinced that 200,000 orcs were present at the Pelennor fields. When you compare the two armies, Sauron's army was bigger, but only by about 3 times, but certainly not 20 times as big. Though that is only what I perceived in the film, not the book.

[alatar]

I mean that compared to the 10,000 Uruks at Helm's Deep, I am not at all convinced that 200,000 orcs were present at the Pelenor fields. When you compare the two armies, Sauron's army was bigger, but only by about 3 times, but certainly not 20 times as big. Though that is only what I perceived in the film, not the book.

I agree that we're only discussing the movies. Will have to watch the Minas Tirith battle again to be sure, but from memory there were many times the number of orcs present as were at Theoden's door.

Many of the enemy weren't able to engage the poorly-led Gondorians as there wasn't room enough to close for battle.

Regardless, let's figure this out by rewatching the DVDs and describing what we each see. It would be helpful, if you were to do so, to mention the scene from which you make your determinations.

And do oliphaunts and crew count as one?