The Recapture of north-east Beleriand

[Macalaure]

I'm referring to the recapture of Beleriand by Maedhros prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. In the Silmarillion we get the clear impression that this was a fault, maybe the fault.

Do you agree?

What if he didn't? Would he have been able to hide his Union before Morgoth until it was too late for the Dark Lord to react?
I'm not sure about that.
To coordinate the attack there had to be great numbers of messengers coming from and going to Himring. With Maglor's Gap open to Morgoth, it is not unprobable, that one of them would have been captured. The smithies of Nogrod and Belegost were busy, but somehow those weapons had to be brought to Himring - across unguarded land. Maybe they would not have been ambushed, but wouldn't the news itself attract Morgoth's attention that something might be up? And in the end, it is simply unthinkable to me that he could have mustered his huge army without being espied. I don't think that he could have done it on Himring itself, for space reasons. The army had to gather behind the Gap before the march.

I agree with J.R.R. Tolkien that freeing Dorthonion was unnecessary, but I think if Maedhros didn't close the Gap of Maglor, his plans would have become known to Morgoth nevertheless.

[A_Brandybuck]

Besides the possibility, that Morgoth could have noticed the new upcoming union between the Elves of Beleriand, if Maedhros have hidden his strength and have let the Gap open, through the traffic of the messengers, there is another detail.
I am sure that Ulfang and his Easterlings had reported the plans to their secret Master. I cannot imagine, that the Easterlings in the service of Morgoth had not alarmed Angband.
They were greedy for the wealthy lands of Beleriand and would not miss out such a chance to proof their loyality to Morgoth.

Anyway the treachery of Ulfang and his people was the deciding factor of the battle and without it, Morgoth had not won the battle.

[Macalaure]

I see your point, but I didn't mention it because it is not affected by whether Maedhros recaptured his March or not.
However, it seems to me, that Tolkien estimated his fault quite high. Only after he tried his strength did Morgoth send out his spies. The Easterlings that already served him must have told him before, but for some reason their early reports didn't seem to bother him.

Anyway the treachery of Ulfang and his people was the deciding factor of the battle and without it, Morgoth had not won the battle.

I'm not so sure about this. Morgoth was strong, and maybe would have won even without their help.

But that is an interesting topic as well:
What were the factors of the great defeat?
What problems could have been absorbed by the Union, which were decisive.

I think the main factor was, again, our beloved Oath...
Without it, no misdeeds of Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond
Without their misdeeds, Nargothrond maybe (if Finrod was still alive: definitely) would have joined.
Without the oath, there would have been no haughty words towards Thingol, and maybe even he would have joined.
With all available forces united, I'm quite optimistic.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Morgoth was strong, and maybe would have won even without their help.

Blaaasphemy! Tolkien is quite clear on this point:

"Yet neither by Wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men"

The "his end" in question being the victory of the Nirnaeth.

Think about it. It was the most catastrophic defeat in the history of Arda and yet there are still so many moments associated with it of pride, valour and resistance. And in the end such things would be enough of a victory, insubstantial though it appeared at the time.

Had Ulfang's and Uldor's men been as steadfast as the loyal Easterlings under the sons of Bor, in my opinion Morgoth's army would have been destroyed and the Siege of Angband renewed, as before the Bragollach.

[Macalaure]

Eeek!
Must have missed that one for some reason.

Though I wonder how anybody could have actually known this (and live to tell). Elves wrote the Silmarillion, and who of them knew how much force Morgoth still had hidden in Angband. They say Angband was empty then, but who could really tell? I'm suspicious the author of this bit only maintains a silent (and surely understandable) grudge for those Men. But of course this is just speculation without any reason.
Enough of this blasphemy!

[Aiwendil]

Elves wrote the Silmarillion, and who of them knew how much force Morgoth still had hidden in Angband.

Actually, Tolkien's latest thought was that Numenoreans wrote it - which only makes it seem less likely, of course, that the author of this statement knew for sure that Angband had been emptied.

But we come again to the whole strange issue of the historical "accuracy" of the Silmarillion. This is an interesting topic and one that has been discussed elsewhere. In the You say 'Faeries' and I say 'Fairies' thread, I said:

There's also the question of what it means to wonder whether a fictional story is "true" - what we mean to ask, of course, is not whether it's literally true but whether it's true or false within a supposed fictional world. But what defines that world if not the narrative whose veracity we're doubting?

I think this is relevant here as well. What do we mean when we doubt the "truth" of what the narrator reports? Obviously, we don't believe that there really was a Nirnaeth Arnoediad which the narrator is inaccurately reporting.

Sorry if this takes the thread a bit off topic, but I think it's an interesting point to consider.