The Breaking of the Hogwarts Fellowship

[littlemanpoet]

I enjoy the Harry Potter novels, and I liked Book Six second or third best of the six so far published. I want this thread to be one of appreciative discussion with literary critique that adds insight instead of criticism that merely dismisses.

Spoiler Alert!: If you haven't finished Book Six, Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, stop reading this thread now, because in this thread all will be revealed.

Crit Warning!: The purpose of this thread is critical appreciation, not dismissal of J.K. Rowling or her novels. Please don't post to this thread with criticiques that dismiss the author and/or the novels as [fill in the blank]; there are other threads where that may be done; feel free to go find them.

Now that the preambles are out of the way, I'd like to draw our attention to some interesteing similarities between LotR and the Harry Potter series that stared me in the face by the time I'd gotten to the final pages of Book Six.

The similarities are not clearly parallel; good thing, or it would be mere imitation.

1. Death - there is mourning and there are burial rites; narrative is invested in this, both with Boromir and Dumbledore (I warned you!).

2. Breaking of the Fellowship - which I alluded to in the thread title. Hogwarts may be no more; it may survive, but apparently not for Harry, Ron, and Hermione.

3. Quest Clarity - In LotR, the quest became crystal clear in The Council of Elrond. It is not until the end of book Six that Harry's Quest becomes crystal clear.

4. Long Clarifying Speeches - You know the ones in LotR: Shadows of the Past, Council of Elrond, Final Debate. It is again not until Book Six that we have the long clarifying speeches from Dumbledore, explaining things to Harry, following the various Pensieve.

5. Hero breaks away from cared for others - You all know about Frodo trying to leave even Sam behind. In HP&HBP (henceforward HBP) we have Harry telling Ginny that he must leave her in order to save her life.

6. Closest friends stick to hero - Harry tries to tell Ron and Hermione the same thing, but they like Sam won't leave Harry.

7. A betrayal results in death - In LotR, Boromir's betrayal results in his own death, which is rather clean compared to HPB in which Snape's apparent betrayal leads directly to Dumbledore's death.

8. Great Wizard lost! - Gandalf/Dumbledore. Will Dumbledore return? I don't think so.

So we have some similarities, which you can of course comment on are argue against as you like.

There are differences already described above, and there are more that could be discussed. I'll leave you to it.

[Glirdan]

Very interesting idea you got here Lmp. I must also add a few small, insignificant similiarities that don't really need to be discussed (unless you feel like bashing J.K Rowling in which case, this is not the thread for you!!).

1. The Ents and Whomping Willow: Even though the Whomping Willow cannot talk or walk, it has still been give some humanistic character traits (personification if you would like to make things simpler).

2. Neville Longbottom/Longbottom Leaf: need I say more?

3. Giant Spiders: This has been discussed in another thread as well. What I like is that they have both placed them in dark, terryfing areas. Representing fear perhaps?

4. Trolls: Even though there was only one (two if you count the dead one in the first book when they're going to save the Philosopher's/Sorcer's Stone), they've both portrayed them as big, smelly imbosils. The only difference is that Tolkien gave his trolls the ability to speak.

Yes, I know, stupid and insignificant. Did I not say so earlier? So, what do you think of those? In total honesty, I don't think she meant to steal those ideas from Tolkien. Maybe his books were a sort of inspiration for her? That's what my belief is.

As for Lmp's similarities (some of them anyway)...

Hero breaks away from cared for others: Not only does Harry break away from Ginny, he's lost everyone that he's ever loved or who has loved him and who could protect him: Lily and James, Sirius and now Dumbledore. There are only a few people that remain who could save him: McGonnagall(sp?), Lupin, Tonks and the Weasley's. Frodo left the rest of the Fellowship (with the exception of Sam [not that he didn't try{which I'll get to in a minute}]); all people who could protect him. Expand on that if you wish.

Closest friends stick to hero: Frodo attempted to ditch Sam. Harry told Ron and Hermione in book one that they could turn back, and they didn't. Still haven't (obviously) and now he's also got others who will probably attempt to aid him and he will try to disuade them, yet utterly fail. Those being Neville and Luna. I also believe that he won't even be able to get rid of Ginny. Somehow, someway, those three will end up being with the main trio.

Quest Clarity: I rather like how J.K Rowling leaves giving off the main plot until the sixth book. It keeps you in major suspense where as Tolkien made Gandalf tell Frodo (or the reader if you prefer) right off the bat (Shadows of the Past I believe).

That's all I really have right now. I'll get back with the others later.

[Lalwendë]

I like the Harry Potter books too. So there.

I think one of the greatest similarities is that both Harry and Frodo are effectively alone in the world. Both are orphaned and are able to act outside the constraints that parents and immediate family may place upon them. Of course both are taken in by relatives and brought up, but I would place Harry's equivalent to Bilbo as being Sirius. The Frodo/Bilbo and Harry/Sirius relationships are fatherly, but not the same as that a son might get from a father; in many respects they are like older brother/younger brother relationships.

Harry and Frodo both also have mentors - in the form of Dumbledore and Gandalf who they eventually have to learn to live without, which is important again, as it is another stage in their ultimate independence. I cannot wait to see how Harry responds to the challenges thrust on him in the final book, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him 'fall' much as Frodo does, and almost succumb, especially remembering him wondering in the very first book whether he would have made a better Slytherin than Gryffindor.

[Rimbaud]

Hogwarts has girls! Ones that don't need to pretend to be men to achieve their goals! Woo! Eh? Oh.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Quest Clarity: I rather like how J.K Rowling leaves giving off the main plot until the sixth book. It keeps you in major suspense where as Tolkien made Gandalf tell Frodo (or the reader if you prefer) right off the bat (Shadows of the Past I believe).

Thanks for your input, Glirdy. I'm really looking forward to Book Seven especially (but not only) because Rowling is breaking free from the handy little crutch called Hogwarts. The place has been fun to be in for six years, but now we're ready for the wide, wild world of wizarding and witchery and all the evils the Death Eaters can bring to bear. Rowling is stepping out of her comfort zone, is what I mean to say. Good for her!

I also appreciate your point that Harry has lost everybody he ever loved, and is likely to lose a few more before this is done. How will it affect him? I think Lal is on to something by suggesting that Harry may come close to a fall.

But if I may tangentize this thread a bit, what do you think of ol' Severus? (I can't wait to see Alan Rickman play him in the sixth movie!) Is he a double agent? Has he betrayed the Order of the Phoenix once and for all? Is Harry completely right about him? I have my doubts...., but I'd love to hear from the rest of you. Oh, and to continue making this thread a Tolkien related one, who does Snape most closely compare to in LotR?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

...who does Snape most closely compare to in LotR?

Gríma - even the names "Snape " and "Snake" sound similar. OK, there are differences, to be sure, but that was my spontaneous response to your question.

[Cailín]

I was a fan of the Harry Potter books long before I even read Lord of the Rings.

Anyway - even though the similarities are definitely there, JK Rowling has stated in interviews that she has never even read Lord of the Rings (though she might have by now). Assuming that she is not lying - and why would she? -, how did those parallels come into being? It seems as if Tolkien and Rowling were perhaps both inspired by the same source and the books are more like siblings than father and child, if this rather strange metaphor makes sense. Maybe it’s also interesting to figure out where the books are clearly different. For example, Harry Potter completely lacks religious influences and is set in a relatively modern world - a world that does not always take itself so seriously as Tolkien‘s Middle Earth.

And Snape? He’s definitely a good guy at heart. Oh yes. I’m a fan. He's nothing like Grima. Wormtail is Gríma.

[Formendacil]

We may be taking things in a rather simplistic direction with comparing Snape with various Lord of the Rings characters, but allow me to jump on that bandwaggon before it gets LMP's frown of disapproval.

In my opinion- my humble opinion, of course- Snape makes me think about Boromir.

Much like Cailín, I am of the opinion that Snape will ultimately, in the end, be proven to be a good guy. Anyone who's read HBP will, of course, recall the Unbreakable Oath that he swore at the beginning. On the assumption I am making that Snape is, in fact, a Good Guy, I would see this as being akin to Boromir's desire to take the ring: well-intentioned, but fore-doomed to fail.

Moving therefore, into the hypothetical realm of Book Seven, I am of the opinion that in the end, Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore will prove crucial to Harry's victory over Voldemort.

Of course, my predictions about who was going to die in HBP were totally off. (Labouring under the delusion that Dumbledore must die in Book Seven, I had pegged either Ginny, Ron, or Bill as the victim...). I guess I'll just have to wait to see whether or not I'm right regarding Snape: chances are that I'll be completely wrong, and I'll have to delete this post due to the ignominity of it all.