Killing Gandalf

[rudeboy]

How can Gandalf be killed, because in Two Towers chapter 'The White Rider' he says to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli that the weapons they have could not hurt him. Now I thought Gandalf was a spirit in an old mans body exposed to human conditions such as; tiredness, hunger and injury etc. What weapons can be used against him?

[Himilsillion]

I think the weapons that can harm Gandalf are the weapons of dark scorcery from the ancient world. The Balrog seemed to hurt him quite a bit and he didn't seem to up-beat around the Witch King of Angmar.

[Fingolfin II]

This thread may be useful .

Gandalf the White (and Grey) is incarnate. So, probably, while a weapon may harm the flesh that he is 'clothed' in, it won't be able to do any damage to the spirit that resides within his body.

I believe that while weapons like Anduril and Aeglos may be able to harm Gandalf's body (I mean, hey, look what Narsil did to Sauron), there probably isn't any weapon in Middle-Earth that can harm his actual spirit. I'm not sure if even the Valar would be able to do that; no doubt Eru could cook up something to get rid of him though .

This question raises some other fascinating possibilities for me. We saw Wormtongue kill Saruman with a dagger, yet he only injured his body, whereas his spirit was dissipated by a cold wind from the West. That seems to contradict my theory that the Valar themselves probably can't harm the spirit of an incarnate being, though that gust may have been sent on the bidding, or by, Eru himself.

In the (abandoned) Second Prophecy of Mandos, it is predicted that Melkor will enter Valinor from the Void and will be slain by the Black Sword of Turin, Gurthang and he will finally die- i.e. his spirit will be slain. This is interesting, since the spirit of (formerly) the most powerful being in Arda can be slain by the sword of a Man - albeit that 'once it bites', it kills (don't have quote on me) - yet Anduril is seemingly unable to harm Gandalf. Himilsillion may be on to something with the 'dark sorcery' weapons- the good cannot hurt good notion, etc., but I don't know if I totally agree with this one.

So in answer to your question- I honestly am not too sure. The canon quotes and evidence I've presented appear to show that the 'clothed body' of an incarnate being can be harmed/destroyed by physical weapons, yet the actual spirit of the Maia cannot. Then there's the Second Prophecy .

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

So in answer to your question- I honestly am not too sure. The canon quotes and evidence I've presented appear to show that the 'clothed body' of an incarnate being can be harmed/destroyed by physical weapons, yet the actual spirit of the Maia cannot. Then there's the Second Prophecy

We don't know in which situation the Black Sword of Turin would be able to harm Morgoth. Perhaps the sword would be the vehicle in which some other power poisons the 'spirit' of Morgoth, and destroys it. I'm thinking something like a vaccine and a syringe, the syringe will not do anything to us but it will help to open an entrance for the vaccine itself.

[Boromir88]

Fingolfin, you've explained it quite well. Rudeboy, I think that Gandalf probably could be killed physically by a weapon on Middle-earth, but as Fingolfin says it wouldn't kill his spirit, only his "physical form." Just like how when Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's finger, it only killed his physical form, not his spirit. He was still alive and capable of taking another physical form. Gandalf, if he was to be killed by say Aragorn, he would still be able to come back.

This question raises some other fascinating possibilities for me. We saw Wormtongue kill Saruman with a dagger, yet he only injured his body, whereas his spirit was dissipated by a cold wind from the West. That seems to contradict my theory that the Valar themselves probably can't harm the spirit of an incarnate being, though that gust may have been sent on the bidding, or by, Eru himself.~Fingolfin

Perhaps they may not be able to "harm" a spirit. But, they are able to decide who enters Valinor or not. And I think this was the case when Saruman was killed. His "spirit" look to the west, and he was denied entrance back to Valinor, and so his spirit just went away.

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, a s a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking into the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.~The Scouring of the Shire.

So, I think as Saruman's spirit was leaving his body, it attempted to go to Valinor, and the Valar, who do have the authority of who to allow in or not, denied him, and his spirit dissappeared. It may not have been destroyed, Saruman's spirit just may be like Sauron's when the Ring was destroyed.

"Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will."~Letter 131

[Frodo Baggins]

Granted that Maiar are much different than "mortals" (including Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits ect.) but could not the same be said for all? Gleaning things like the souls of elves being rebodied and them fading after living too long, it could it perhaps be argued that they too are only able to be harmed in body. The discussion that orcs have souls is another thread and I will leave them out. However, is it possible all sentient creatures (what Lewis would call Hnau in his space trilogy) of ME are only able to be killed in body but not in soul?