No Living Man

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Feeling slightly guilty for not having a half dozen quotes and sources at the ready. I've been encouraged to post this thread any how. (Searches came up with related topics, but nothing close enough for me to tug the topic in my direction).

The Witch King cannot be killed (edit: hindered) by any living man. That's a given. We already know that. So the theory (which works, of course), is that, by default, he can be killed (edit: hindered) by a living woman. But what about an unliving man? Isn't that a second default? What of the Dead Army? What effect would the King of the Dead, who no man but Aragorn can command, have?

It has been pointed out that the Dead Army doesn't necessarily weild death, but the Witch King isn't exactly alive, is he?

Fea

Edit:

"Hinder me? Thou Fool. No living man may hinder me!" (RotK, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, page 127)

[radagastly]

Actually, I think the book says he WILL not be killed by any man, but my books are at home and I am not. In other words, it's not mandatory, it's just a prediction of how it will actually turn out to be (and so it does!)

Of course that does not answer your question. Could a non-living man kill him? I suppose, the King of the Dead could knock him off, or the barrow-wight (though he was in control of the barrow-wight himself.) It's been speculated that even a man could kill him, just that it was fortold that's not the way it would happen. No Living Man Would kill him. It'd be something else.

[Elianna]

"Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall," is what Glorfindel said. No mention in there of "living." I think that was added over the years. So maybe an unliving woman could have killed him.

[Boromir88]

Actually, I think the book says he WILL not be killed by any man, but my books are at home and I am not. In other words, it's not mandatory, it's just a prediction of how it will actually turn out to be (and so it does!)

That's what Glorfindel (and some other dude) says. Definitely a lot different than "no man COULD kill the Witch-king." To say "could" would mean absolutely no man would be able to kill the Wikkie.

Where as said by Glorfindel means "no man WILL kill the Wikkie," could mean that it's possible a man could kill the WK, but he won't be killed by man. Then there's even the possibility that the quote only means "men" as in the race, not as in male. Possibly Gandalf, Glorfindel, Elrond...etc would have been able to kill the WK, but we will never know. I doubt a "man" would have been able to kill the WK. I mean Earnur already challenged him (said to be the best mortal fighter during his time) and ended up losing, so...I don't know maybe Hurin?

I think it's also clear that a man could have killed the WK (if they had the Sword of westernesse). If Merry was a tad taller and had stabbed the WK in the back...hmmm...

As for a question about an "unliving" man. I don't know, it doesn't mention the Army of the Dead to be used for fighting purposes, but were just used to scare off the pirates. Could they have been effective in the "living Middle-earth?" Effective as in being able to kill others from another parallel dimension? There's all sorts of dimensions in Middle-earth, and I'm just getting myself more confused, maybe something I need to think on when I'm well rested.

[Lolidir]

this is from the book at the battle. as he comes for Theoden, Eowyn steps in front, and action.

Eowyn- "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"

Witch King- "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

Eowyn- "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."

Witch King- "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Eowyn- "But no living man am I! You look apon a women. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."

so to me i think he is just saying that any other "man" would not have the strength or courage to defeat/kill him. and that it took someone with extreme courage to stand up to him. thats just me. bc i would consider Merry a man, wouldnt you? some may say no he was a Hobbit well then speaking like that wouldnt it fit to say that an elf would be able to kill him then? in my opinion it was just a boast of his power.

[Lostgaeriel]

First of all, can a mature male hobbit be called a man?

Lolidir wrote:

bc i would consider Merry a man, wouldnt you? some may say no he was a Hobbit

Let's go to a good source on this question:

'I will vouch for him before the seat of Denethor,' said Gandalf. 'And as for valour, that cannot be computed by stature. He has passed through more battles and perils than you have, Ingold, though you be twice his height; and he comes now from the storming of Isengard, of which we bear tidings, and great weariness is on him, or I would wake him. His name is Peregrim, a very valiant man.'

'Man?' said Ingold dubiously, and the others laughed.

'Man!' cried Pippin, now thoroughly roused. 'Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a man, save perhaps now and again by necessity. Do not let Gandlaf deceive you!'

If a hobbit says that a hobbit is not a man, then I think that question is settled.

This is of course the reason why we debate whose blow actually killed/destroyed the Witch King - Eowyn's or Merry's. (But that is discussed on another thread.)

But back to the initial question posed by Feanor of the Peredhil which I think I can paraphrase as 'Could the Witch King have been killed by an unliving man or unliving woman?’.

Note that Glorfindel does not include the adjective 'living' in the following excerpt from Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers; I, The Númenorean Kings; (iv) Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion (just before The Stewards section):

’Eärnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: “Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.” These words many remembered; but Eärnur was angry desiring only to be avenged for his disgrace.

So, 'Could the Witch King have been killed by an unliving man or unliving woman?’
is not relevant to the actual 'prophecy' by Glorfindel. Sorry about that. (I really didn't know what my conclusion was going to be until I searched through the quotes.)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Only Éowyn (with the help of Merry, of course) could have killed the Witch-King. No other.

To prophesy you have to go beyond the constraints of time and see . . . well . . . time. Case in point: Remember the vision of Ainulindalë? This is where the Ainur got some of their prophetic ability from. Add to that their personal contributions to the making of Eä, they know pretty much more about the future than anyone else in Arda.

So, when Glorfindel says, "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall," he already saw Witch-King's fall in Minas Tirith, brought about by Éowyn. As Éowyn didn't exist yet at that time (or perhaps the vision was not clear--I don't know), I don't think he could have put a name to the face he saw.

Of course, this introduces the predestination vs. free will debate into the mix.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Of course, this introduces the predestination vs. free will debate into the mix.

A bit more than that.

You brought up the Ainulindalë. Remember one of the major points of that first book of the Silmarillion?

Men are not bound by the Music of the Ainur. They have the power to make their own fate in the world.

So this whole matter becomes very confusing. The Witch-king, after all, is a man, albeit one immensely changed from his original, natural, form. But is his fate affected by this? Is he not free from the constraints of predestination?

And what about Éowyn and Merry? Hobbits are considered to be a sub-race of Men, and so both of these two, although not Men in the sense of the prophecy, are still Men in the sense that they are not bound by the Ainulindalë.

What I think needs to be differentiated here is the difference between HAVING to do something, and CHOOSING to do something. The Ainur, and all those bound by their Music, HAVE to do things when it tells them to. Their lives, to a certain extent, at least, are bound by it. Men (incl. women, children, and hobbits) do not have to do things.

My take on Glorfindel's prophecy therefore, is this: when Glorfindel was making his prediction, he was saying that the Witch-king would be felled "not by hand of man", because his Elven foresight told him that was how it would happen. It told him that Merry and Éowyn would CHOOSE to do what they did, thus resulting in the death of the Witch-king.

The technical aspects of what they did could have been accomplished by a couple of ordinary men. Say some Ranger of Arnor armed with the barrow-sword, and some unhorsed Gondorian knight with an ordinary sword, in much the same way that it actually happened ten centuries after Eärnur. There was nothing "magic" or harmful to the Witch-king about Merry and Éowyn being not-Men. It was simply a combination of circumstance and choice.

The Witch-king wasn't DESTINED to fall by "not-men", but Glorfindel foresaw that he WOULD. There is a distinction, although I suppose it IS a very fine one.