Illnesses in Middle-Earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

A_Brandybuck · 02-20-2005, 03:17 PM

While I was searching through some family trees of the Shire, I noticed that there were not many "early deaths" in the diagrammed families. Even by other races or families seems it, that all persons can live very long, save he/she was killed. I started to make some thoughts about this topic and the related topics.
Does there are no bad illnesses in Middle-Earth or does the illnesses are only not reported, whether good-natured or bad-natured?

This seems to me a good question: Here are my thoughts, free to discuss.
For the good good-natured illnesses, I could find at least the little cold, which Bilbo had in Esgaroth. But also a cold seems to be very rare in Middle-Earth. There is i.e. no mention of a cold, when the Fellowship come down the Caradhras.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOTR

he banquet was very splendid, however, though I had a bad cold at the time, I remember, and could only say 'thag you very buch'. I now repeat it more correctly

Was the population of Middle-Earth more resistent against illnesses or does there are only few bacteria?

For the bad-natured illnesses , I could find the "Great Plague" an evil epidemic, which came over the lands of Middle-Earth. It is comparable to our "black death", I think.

The mentioning of Tolkien, that Elves could not suffer under illnesses, implies that it must give more than these.

But we can exclude the Elves in our argumentation.
Save from the question, whether the static consumption of alcoholic drinks like wine could harm an Elf? ( I allude here to Thranduil) ;-)

Mithalwen · 02-20-2005, 03:41 PM

Hmm interesting points. The existence of the houses of healing suggests that there were illnesses - unless they mean healing from injuries only rather than from illness. Given that elves don't get ill and are more injury resistant than men , I always wondered how Elrond got quite so much skill in healing

... but of course he had a lot of non-elf visitors.

I suspect that, in general illness, is linked partially to moral/spiritual decline and that is why in those societies which lead simple, healthy lives, illness is rare. I think somewhere it says that the Numenoreans were less afflicted by illness thatn lesser men but I will check this, Illness in LOTR often emanates from the enemy directly - eg the black breath, or indirectly. Finduilas who is one of the few to die young but not from violence, was "filled with horror" by the shadow of the east. Gilraen also dies it seems from despair in the face of the Shadow.

Will do some research...

Tuor of Gondolin · 02-20-2005, 08:04 PM

Hmm.
And recall The Great Plague in the Third Age which came from the southeast.
Did it affect elves and/or dwarves? Were there other plagues? Did Sauron
send or abet plagues? How about Morgoth?

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 02-21-2005, 02:25 AM

This thread has a little discussion on the low occurrence of early death of any kind among hobbits (I believe mostly on the second page).

I believe, not really a "pathogen" per se, but the elves have a sort of sickness of soul that sends them to Mandos or at the least to Valinor as much as anything else (Miriel, Celebrian). I don't think they were susceptible to death by physical illness though.

I don't know a lot about illnesses in other races, but it's an interesting topic.

Sophia

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-21-2005, 07:38 AM

Elves' immunity to disease does seem to me to be somewhat problematic.

We know that Elves can be affected, and killed, by physical damage. All diseases work by inflicting some kind of physical damage on the sufferer. It might be argued that a distinction may be made between external trauma (such as that inflicted by a weapon) and internal trauma (such as that inflicted by disease), yet Elves are affected, and can be killed, by poison (cf Celebrian and Aredhel), which, like disease, works by inflicting internal trauma.

The only explanation that I can come up with is that Elves had a highly developed immune system. Their vulnerability to poison, however, mitigates against this too. And if one were to speculate that the poison needed to render damage to an Elf would have to be particularly potent, would that not open them up to the possibility of being affected by a particularly virulent disease?

On different note, I have always thought it rather ironic that Elves, being the only race that do not seem to indulge in the pipeweed habit (cf Legolas' views on the habit at Isengard), are also the only race that would be immune to its potentially harmful consequences. Then again, there seem to be no recorded instances of pipeweed-related deaths in Middle-earth and the healthy lifespan of most Hobbits would seem to suggest that pipweed in Middle-earth has somewhat less potentially harmful consequences than its real-life counterparts.

Boromir88 · 02-21-2005, 09:29 AM

I don't know if much is actually said on colds, viruses, or diseases. However, there is a bunch of what SpM calls, external diseases. Sort of a form of biological warfare, the use of poisoned arrows (Faramir and Gwaihir), the morgul blades, the Wraiths' "black breath," all have some sort of power to inflict sickness on people.

We can tell from the use of herbs (Athelas), Elrond and Gandalf both heal people, the Houses of Healing, that their could be some sort of internal disease(s) in Middle-earth. However, anytime we see these circumstances of the HoH, Elrond, Gandalf...athelas, it is used to heal an external disease caused by a poisoned dart, or magical sword.

alatar · 02-21-2005, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Elves' immunity to disease does seem to me to be somewhat problematic.

We know that Elves can be affected, and killed, by physical damage. All diseases work by inflicting some kind of physical damage on the sufferer.

Assume that the bacteria and viruses are species-specific (i.e. Canine viruses don't affect humans) so the 'bugs' have no way to propagate in the elves' bodies. You need to get 'it' from someone, and if the elves don't have their own diseases and can't get them from any other species...but humans and elves can pair, so...hmmm (See final comment).

Also assume that even when elves get a bug, their regenerative abilities outdo whatever damage is done more quickly than would be possible in a human. Their 'clean living' allows them to appear normal as the disease runs its natural course.

And people always associate 'cold weather' as a causal agent when it's the stress of the same that opens you up for the bugs - that and that when it's cold you're in closer proximity to others who are also stressed. I think that the 'cold' that killed the Elves on their journey Westward was physical - smashed by ice, drowned, etc.

Not that I've put too much thought to this as what I've always liked about fantasy is that during the whole trip from Bag End to the Crack of Doom and back no one *ever* has to stop for 'relief.'

02-20-2005, 03:41 PM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,459	Hmm interesting points. The existence of the houses of healing suggests that there were illnesses - unless they mean healing from injuries only rather than from illness. Given that elves don't get ill and are more injury resistant than men , I always wondered how Elrond got quite so much skill in healing ... but of course he had a lot of non-elf visitors. I suspect that, in general illness, is linked partially to moral/spiritual decline and that is why in those societies which lead simple, healthy lives, illness is rare. I think somewhere it says that the Numenoreans were less afflicted by illness thatn lesser men but I will check this, Illness in LOTR often emanates from the enemy directly - eg the black breath, or indirectly. Finduilas who is one of the few to die young but not from violence, was "filled with horror" by the shadow of the east. Gilraen also dies it seems from despair in the face of the Shadow. Will do some research... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

02-20-2005, 08:04 PM	#3
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Hmm. And recall The Great Plague in the Third Age which came from the southeast. Did it affect elves and/or dwarves? Were there other plagues? Did Sauron send or abet plagues? How about Morgoth? __________________ Aure Entuluva!

02-21-2005, 02:25 AM	#4
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,780	Helpful link This thread has a little discussion on the low occurrence of early death of any kind among hobbits (I believe mostly on the second page). I believe, not really a "pathogen" per se, but the elves have a sort of sickness of soul that sends them to Mandos or at the least to Valinor as much as anything else (Miriel, Celebrian). I don't think they were susceptible to death by physical illness though. I don't know a lot about illnesses in other races, but it's an interesting topic. Sophia __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!

02-21-2005, 07:38 AM	#5
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Elves' immunity to disease does seem to me to be somewhat problematic. We know that Elves can be affected, and killed, by physical damage. All diseases work by inflicting some kind of physical damage on the sufferer. It might be argued that a distinction may be made between external trauma (such as that inflicted by a weapon) and internal trauma (such as that inflicted by disease), yet Elves are affected, and can be killed, by poison (cf Celebrian and Aredhel), which, like disease, works by inflicting internal trauma. The only explanation that I can come up with is that Elves had a highly developed immune system. Their vulnerability to poison, however, mitigates against this too. And if one were to speculate that the poison needed to render damage to an Elf would have to be particularly potent, would that not open them up to the possibility of being affected by a particularly virulent disease? On different note, I have always thought it rather ironic that Elves, being the only race that do not seem to indulge in the pipeweed habit (cf Legolas' views on the habit at Isengard), are also the only race that would be immune to its potentially harmful consequences. Then again, there seem to be no recorded instances of pipeweed-related deaths in Middle-earth and the healthy lifespan of most Hobbits would seem to suggest that pipweed in Middle-earth has somewhat less potentially harmful consequences than its real-life counterparts. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

02-21-2005, 09:29 AM	#6
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,519	I don't know if much is actually said on colds, viruses, or diseases. However, there is a bunch of what SpM calls, external diseases. Sort of a form of biological warfare, the use of poisoned arrows (Faramir and Gwaihir), the morgul blades, the Wraiths' "black breath," all have some sort of power to inflict sickness on people. We can tell from the use of herbs (Athelas), Elrond and Gandalf both heal people, the Houses of Healing, that their could be some sort of internal disease(s) in Middle-earth. However, anytime we see these circumstances of the HoH, Elrond, Gandalf...athelas, it is used to heal an external disease caused by a poisoned dart, or magical sword.