Gandalf And Bilbo

Gandalf was quite the puppetmaster throughout the 3rd Age, and unless I'm mistaken, he conscripted the dwarves to regain their territory at the Lonely Mountain in order to slay Smaug the Dragon. He wanted to remove Smaug in particular and any dragon in general from siding with Sauron in the coming war.

Why did he inject Bilbo into this adventure? It would make sense if he knew that Bilbo was going to come into pocession of the ring, but that was an unforeseen accident, wasn't it? I don't remember him being aware of Gollum this early in the story.

[Milord Aldagrim]

I'll admit, Gandalf did manupilate things pretty well, but I don't think he planned everything out. I think getting Bilbo as a burglar was simply luck because, although he saw something special in the hobbit, he didn't know what exactly he would do. I think he saw that Bilbo could help the dwarves, but didn't know exactly how big a role the hobbits would play in the whole sceme of things.

That's probably as close to the truth as Tolkien would admit to. Gandalf certainly wasn't spot on in any ability to foresee events. In many cases it appeared that he had only "vague" ideas as to what was going to happen. Which is good for character development. The wizard does have powers of a sort, but is also anchored with inabilites as well. Otherwise, he would simply solve the problems himself and there would be no story.

[Firefoot]

Welcome to the Downs, Gloin!

There is quite a bit of information on this topic in the book Unfinished Tales - more than you can get from the Hobbit. It is true that Gandalf wanted some way of Smaug; however, he had no way of going about this until he was overtaken by Thorin in Bree. Here is an exerpt that I think will clear some things up for you (Gandalf is speaking):

"To my surprise he [Thorin] spoke to me; and it was at that moment the tide began to turn.

"He was troubled too, so troubled that he actually asked for my advice. So I went with him to his halls in the Blue Mountains, and I listened to his lng tale. I soon understood taht his heart was hot with brooding on his wrongs, and the loss of treasure of his forefathers, and burdened too with the duty of revenge upon Smaug that he had inherited. Dwarves take such duties very seriously.

"I promised to help him if I could. I was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and I could see no hope in that. So I left him and went off to the Shire, and picked up the threads of news. It was a strange business. I did no more than follow the lead of'chance,' and made mayn mistakes on the way.

"Somehow I had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child, and a young hobbit: he had not quite come of age when I had last seen him. He had stayed in my mind ever since, with his lvoe of tales and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As sooon as I entered the Shire I heard news of him. He was getting talked about it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire-folk, at about eighty; and he had never marreid. He was already growing a bit queer, they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves.

"'Even Dwarves!' Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world."

[Gandalf goes on to say how he had to persuade Thorin to put aside his dreams of a grand battle and take only a small party, and how poorly the Unexpected Party went, and how Thorin left in a rage at him, thinking Gandalf had set the whole thing up simply to make a fool of him, and the only reason Thorin continued to listen to Gandalf at all was the map and key of Thrain.]

"Thorin was contemptuous and suspicious. 'He is soft,' he snorted. 'Soft as the mud of his Shire, and silly. His mother died too soon. You are playing some crooked game of your own, Master Gandalf. I am sure that you have other purposes than helping me.'

"'You are quite right,' I said. 'If I had no other purposes, I should not be helping you at all. Great as yhour affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. I am concerned with many strands. But that should make my advice more weighty, not less.' I spoke at last with great heat. 'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!" I said. "If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.'"

[It goes on much like this (Gandalf actually threatens Thorin) until, as we all know, Thorin agrees to take Bilbo]

Apologies for the length - I tried to shorten it as much as I could. I hope this clears it up for you.

Well, that was very much appreciated. Thank you Firefoot.
I'm hesitant on reading works that are done as an afterthought, though Unfinished Tales may not fall into that category. Whenever a story becomes popular and its author is no longer with us, books inevitably appear to feed off the popularity. The Law Of Diminshing Returns suggests this reading would not be of the standard of the original. Even if these snipets of stories are actually written by the author, its still not a finished product (assumption).
Yet I may indulge in obtaining Unfinished Tales anyway, as the quotes you have provided does indeed help in filling in the background story.
Thanks again.

[Mithalwen]

Gloin, I understand what you are saying, but do read Unfinished Tales. To my mind it is more "authentic" than the published Silmarillion because Christopher Tolkien did not attempt to polish them in to a finished narrative but has published them with footnotes to explain inconsistencies with the published works. As well as the background to the quest of Erebor there is fascinating back history on the Istari, the Palantiri, the Druadan Cirion and Eorl, the House of Dol Amroth and the loss of the ring - some of these are developed versions of what appeared in the appendices and given the pressure that Tolkien was under both of time and book length, I don't think that their omission is necessarily a judgement on their quality.

Also there is the wonderful tale of Aldarion and Erendis, which is as fine a story as Tolkien ever wrote and shows a greater insight into dysfunctional relationships than you might expect. It is a gem not to be missed. Remember that tolkien found it hard to find a publisher for the Silmarillion stories ... they only wanted the "bankable" hobbits. Anyway, read UT even if you give HoME a wide berth.

Re cross post with Eomer .. great minds....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

If I may try to influence you, buy Unfinished Tales!

Even if you're not too interested in The Silmarillion, UT adds a fair bit to your appreciation of The Lord of the Rings. All the extra talk about the Black Riders, Dwarves, Rohan and Gandalf is worth it alone.