Faramir's age.

[Boromir88]

I was looking, and the 3 stewards before Denethor never reached a 100 yrs in age. Now that Denethor died, let's say "prematurely" he might have reached 100 yrs old, because for an upper 80 man I thought he seemed fairly healthy, I mean carrying a sword and wearing a full suit of mail. But, still yet he failed to reach 100 yrs. Then we have Faramir who jumps up to 120 yrs old, and the only other steward to reach 120 was Mardil. So, I would like to know is there any significance Tolkien ment by making the first and last ruling stewards reach 120? And, this has been slightly discussed before but Faramir was very old for a Gondor man at this time, any reason that he lived so long?

[Encaitare]

I can't back this with a quote or anything, but I'm pretty sure it says that Faramir had received by some chance much of the blood of Numenor, so therefore he would live longer than the average man, or Steward. There would have been more Numenorean blood in the earlier Gondorians, hence Mardil's long age. The fact that they both lived to be 120 might just serve to "bookend" the era of the Ruling Stewards.

If anyone can provide a quote or excerpt explaining this, please do.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

[Gandalf: ] . . . whatever be [Denethor's] descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir . . . (LotR V 1)

This is the only one I remember.

[Fingolfin II]

Faramir wasn't a ruling steward- Denethor was the last. I suppose Faramir would have longer lifespan than the common Gondorians because of his Steward descent, but also because of his minor touch of Elven blood through his descent from Finduilas of Dol Amroth.

I think it says somewhere in RotK that it was not common for a man, even of 'purer' blood, to live for longer than five score (100 years), so Faramir had an extraordinary longevity granted to him even for a Steward of Gondor; another example is Elros who lived extremely long even by the span of a Numenorean King.

This may be due to his good deeds and his role in the War of the Ring (look at Aragorn who was rewarded with life longer than most of his forefathers who weren't born in Numenor, for all his hard work in the defeat of Saruon). However, I also think that the Dol Amroth Elven blood factor plays a fairly significant role in this as well.

[rutslegolas]

Well Gndalf certainly mentions that Faramir had Numenor blood so I think he would certainly live for more than 100 years. But I cant find anything saying that he lived as long as Elessar ?

[Fingolfin II]

He didn't live as long as Aragorn, who lived for 210 years, but what I'm saying is that he is similar to Aragorn in that they both have a marked longevity even for their own bloodlines, which are longer-lived than most Gondorians.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was looking, and the 3 stewards before Denethor never reached a 100 yrs in age. Now that Denethor died, let's say "prematurely" he might have reached 100 yrs old, because for an upper 80 man I thought he seemed fairly healthy, I mean carrying a sword and wearing a full suit of mail. But, still yet he failed to reach 100 yrs. Then we have Faramir who jumps up to 120 yrs old, and the only other steward to reach 120 was Mardil. So, I would like to know is there any significance Tolkien ment by making the first and last ruling stewards reach 120? And, this has been slightly discussed before but Faramir was very old for a Gondor man at this time, any reason that he lived so long?

## Maybe Faramir lived as long as he did, as a result of the renewal brought by the return (& coronation) of the King. Gondor stops decaying - and is renewed. And there is no more Sauron, so the worst of his effects pass; though much remains.

When Mardil died in 2080, presumably the decline in the gifts of the Valar to the Numenoreans had not gone as far as it would by (say) 3000. Mardil was of a family related closely to the Kings of Numenor (though apparently not as closely as the Lords of Andunie, from whom the Kings of Arnor & Gondor were descended); and as he lived a thousand years before his descendant Faramir, the gifts of the Valar - which included long life - may have been less "diluted" by living in Middle Earth, not being in Numenor, being in a land under the Shadow, etc. Elendil was 322 when he died prematurely in battle. Isildur was 234 when he was killed. His son, Elendur, was a young man of 144. Aragorn, as rightful king many generations later, lived to 210 - much less than most of his ancestors, but 90 years more than his distant relative Faramir. Had Aragorn not been "Envinyatar", "the Renewer", his lifespan might have been significantly less.

Being in Middle Earth, and declining from what they had been, lessened the vitality & lifespan of the Numenoreans - and these ages are the result of living in that environment. Though there is probably far more to it than that. Environment is never just environment in Tolkien.

[Belegorn]

The enviroment probably did play a role in the diminishment of lifespans since it seemed to be the nature of Middle Earth with fading. In Aragorn's line unless they were killed his forebears were living to 150+ years. His Grandfather and father were both slain, but prior to them, going backwards, the Cheiftains ages were, 155, 155, 156, 156, 157, 157, 158, 159, et cetera. His father was killed with a poison missle to the eye, I believe, at 60 and his grandfather died at 110 by trolls in the mountains. If Denethor was like the nearest of kin to Aragorn I would think that Faramir was even moreso like him in behavior which is why he and Aragorn were pretty long-lived imo since we can see how the behavior of the Faithful and King's Men in Numenor effected their lifespans. The lifespan of the average man was 70 years and the average Numenorean had a lifespan 3 times that, which would be 210 [70 X 3] which was what Aragorn was when he died.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

The enviroment probably did play a role in the diminishment of lifespans since it seemed to be the nature of Middle Earth with fading. In Aragorn's line unless they were killed his forebears were living to 150+ years. His Grandfather and father were both slain, but prior to them, going backwards, the Cheiftains ages were, 155, 155, 156, 156, 157, 157, 158, 159, et cetera. His father was killed with a poison missle to the eye, I believe, at 60 and his grandfather died at 110 by trolls in the mountains. If Denethor was like the nearest of kin to Aragorn I would think that Faramir was even moreso like him in behavior which is why he and Aragorn were pretty long-lived imo since we can see how the behavior of the Faithful and King's Men in Numenor effected their lifespans. The lifespan of the average man was 70 years and the average Numenorean had a lifespan 3 times that, which would be 210 [70 X 3] which was what Aragorn was when he died.

That point about Aragorn living 70 x 3 years is important, I think. Elros was given a span of 500 years - which (I assume, and the assumption needs testing) is to be understood as 5 x 100, rather than as 7 x 70 (plus 10 years). This is exceptional - no other Ruler, even before the coming of the Shadow, was anything like as old; Tar-Atanamir lived to 421, but only at the cost of becoming senile. His son was the last Ruler to reach 400. (His son reached 390 - how far this is significant, is not clear.) When Ar-Pharazon died (if that's what happened) he was 201 - which is presumably to be understood as 67 x 3; and though still vigorous to go to war, he was "feeling his age", and near to death. Presumably a 400-year life for a Numenorean Ruler would be equivalent to a lifespan of 80 for a Lesser Man; implying that a Numenorean Ruler would "wear out" 5 times as slowly as a Lesser Man. So (on this hypothesis) when Vardamir Nolimon became King at age 381, that age has to be divided by 5 (= 76.2) to find the equivalent age for a Lesser man. (A complication is that Anardil, born 700 S. A., in 725 is presumably 25 years of age, but not 5 years old in vitality; in 800, he is 100 years of age, but (presumably) has the vitality of a man aged 20, or 1/5 of a 100.

Bearing all this mind, ISTM that Elendil's premature death in battle, at 322, needs to be divided by 5 or 4 or 3. The respective ages resulting would be: 64.4, 80.5, or 107.3 & a bit. STM death in battle at 64 makes sense, & that the others are too old. This would imply that the Lords of Andunie retained their long lives even when the Kings did not, & lived five times as long as Lesser Men. If Elendil died prematurely at 322, this suggests his age should be divided by 5 - IOW, he had the vitality of a Lesser Man aged 64. On this hypothesis, the premature death of Isildur at 234 is equivalent to 234 - 5 = 46.8. IOW, he had the vitality of a Lesser Man aged almost 47.

Meneldil of Gondor was 281 (= 123 years of life in Second Age + 158 years in the Third Age). His cousin Valandil lived 260 years (3430 S.A. + 249 T.A). As Meneldil, unlike Valandil, was born in Numenor, he may have been born with an inbuilt resistance to loss of vitality that Valandil, born in Middle Earth, lacked. So - piling speculation on speculation ! - Meneldil's age may be divisible by 4 (to make 70) or 3 (to make 90). Valandil's age of 260 amounts to a Lesser Man's lifespan of almost 87 (3 x 87 = 261), of 65 (4 x 65 = 260), or of 52 (5 = 52 = 260). The waning in vitality or in lifespan or in both seems to begin soon after the birth of Meneldil in 3318, but to be slow, and not constant.

This would provide background for interpreting Aragorn's age, and therefore, Faramir's. Cirion the Steward had been Steward from 2489 to 2567 - 78 years, or almost 2/3 of Faramir's life of 120 years. So the Stewards, even under the Shadow in Middle Earth, seem to have retained their vitality until late in the Third Age. Even if Cirion was a young man when he became Steward, 78 years is a long time. It would help if we knew whether (as with the later Rulers of Numenor) the power passed from aged Stewards to their successors: there are a lot of questions of constitutional law in the Numenorean kingdoms that are not spelled out. Answers to them might resolve some of the contradictions - like the one about when Tar-Minastir reigned.

One big question I would love an answer to: is the environment & its effect on lifespans, etc., to be understood as a self-contained natural force - or is it a way of describing the action of the Valar upon the world ? When the lifespans of the Kings "wane" in Numenor, is that because of the kind of environmental change a weather-man could study; or is it, instead, the result of the action of the Valar ? What is the relation between the Valar, and events in Arda ?

Are the ages of Aragorn's ancestors "canonical" ? I've read some of the HoME, but not all. It can't all be canonical.

BTW, that essay at http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decl...umenoreans.htm is outstanding

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

This would imply that the Lords of Andunie retained their long lives even when the Kings did not, & lived five times as long as Lesser Men.

They certainly did have longer lifespans that the Kings I would think due to the effect of the rebellion on the King's Men specifically. The deterioration of their lifespans coincided with their grasping for longer and/or eternal life.

"The lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their REBELLION" [Sil, p. 330]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

If Elendil died prematurely at 322, this suggests his age should be divided by 5 - IOW, he had the vitality of a Lesser Man aged 64.

Are you assuming here that 322 is comparable to 64 in the Middle Men? I'm not sure if this is the case. The Dunedain as I know it did not age as other men did, lifespan aside.

"The first approach of 'world-weariness' was indeed A SIGN for them that their PERIOD OF VIGOUR was nearing its end. When it came TO AN END, if they PERSISTED IN LIVING, then DECAY WOULD PROCEED, as growth had done, NO MORE SLOWLY than among OTHER MEN." [UT, p. 236]

Only after this sign [world-weariness] would they begin to get old like other Men. A note is mentioned where it is said that the end of vigour would be around 400 or earlier, & 200 or later for the line of Elros and other Dunedain respectively. [236-237] I think even when their lifespans were almost as those of other men their vigour still held longer than other men.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

As Meneldil, unlike Valandil, was born in Numenor, he may have been born with an inbuilt resistance to loss of vitality that Valandil, born in Middle Earth, lacked. So - piling speculation on speculation ! -

I would not say he had less vitality. One was longer lived than the other, but they would both remain vital deep into their lifespans. It's not like the one with the lesser years grew weaker earlier in his lifespan than the other did in his. Unlike the few Nobles in Gondor who kept their vitality deeper into their lifespans which were close to normal men, who became weaker earlier into their lifespans.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Meneldil's age may be divisible by 4 (to make 70) or 3 (to make 90). Valandil's age of 260 amounts to a Lesser Man's lifespan of almost 87 (3 x 87 = 261), of 65 (4 x 65 = 260), or of 52 (5 = 52 = 260). The waning in vitality or in lifespan or in both seems to begin soon after the birth of Meneldil in 3318, but to be slow, and not constant.

I'm looking at the line of the Kings of the Mark for a guage of the ages of normal Men and from Eorl to Theoden the span of life for these kings are: 60, 58, 101 [Aldor the Old], 89, 86, 80, 74, 73, 68, 72, 90, 71, 60, 73, 83, 75, & 71.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

This would provide background for interpreting Aragorn's age, and therefore, Faramir's. Cirion the Steward had been Steward from 2489 to 2567 - 78 years, or almost 2/3 of Faramir's life of 120 years. So the Stewards, even under the Shadow in Middle Earth, seem to have retained their vitality until late in the Third Age.

The House of the Stewards were certainly one of the purest houses in Gondor, "they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages" [People of Middle-earth, ch. 7] It is also said of the noble families in Gondor, "indeed the span of their lives had waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood." [TotK, p. 149]

I mentioned before about the behavior of the Dunedain having some contribution to their lengthy years. In a note in Unfinished Tales it is said, "the increase in the Numenorean span was brought about by ASSIMILATION of their MODE OF LIFE to THAT OF THE ELDAR" [235] Notably Aragorn and Faramir seem to have this assimilation, especially Aragorn who was raised in Elrond's house.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Even if Cirion was a young man when he became Steward, 78 years is a long time. It would help if we knew whether (as with the later Rulers of Numenor) the power passed from aged Stewards to their successors: there are a lot of questions of constitutional law in the Numenorean kingdoms that are not spelled out.

Cirion was 118 when he died and I think he was one of the better ruling Stewards of Gondor. He was ever watchful and called for aid when he saw the movement of his enemies and according to Eorl, "in Cirion Eorl saw the HIGHEST and NOBLEST man of THE WORLD that HE KNEW, and the WISEST, on whom sat the MAJESTY of KINGS OF MEN of long ago." [UT, p. 317] Like his descendants in Faramir and Denethor he appeared in every which way a Numenorean.

I'm not sure what you mean by the passing of power here, but the Stewards all shared the same powers, although their worldly power varied according to the times as regards the realm of Gondor itself. The passing of office itself for the Stewards was a bit different than with the Kings because it could pass in the female like, even though the Kings of Anor and Gondor were from the female line being of the House of Andunie. So if the Steward left no son it could pass to his aunt's son or his sister's son. The council of Gondor had a hand in this choice. If the Stweard had a son the council had no power to choose.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Answers to them might resolve some of the contradictions - like the one about when Tar-Minastir reigned.

You mean as regards to succession to the throne?

Originally Posted by Saurondil

is the environment & its effect on lifespans, etc., to be understood as a self-contained natural force - or is it a way of describing the action of the Valar upon the world ?

I think it's the way of the world. This is why the Valar created Aman, the Undying Lands, and hollowed it out and all so it is unlike the rest of Arda. This is why it is home to the Elves who're doomed to live as long as Arda survives and why Feanor's grandson and his boys were dupped into creating the Rings of Power by Sauron so that they could bring Aman to Middle-earth and stop waning and decay, etc. The Valar do have a part to play I think. At times they turn to Eru as in the case with the Rebellion in Numenor.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

When the lifespans of the Kings "wane" in Numenor, is that because of the kind of environmental change a weather-man could study; or is it, instead, the result of the action of the Valar ? What is the relation between the Valar, and events in Arda ?

I believe the Valar withdrew their gifts from the High Men due to their rebellion. They give and slowly take away and I think it was a combo when the exiles in M-E had to deal with the natural waning of M-E and the gradual withdrawing of their gifts by the Valar.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Are the ages of Aragorn's ancestors "canonical" ? I've read some of the HoME, but not all. It can't all be canonical.

I got those from The People's of Middle Earth and they seem like they would probably coincide with the dates in the Tale of Years.