Giving Strength - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

symestreem · 05-10-2004, 03:30 PM

The name "Ecthelion" apparently has no translation. However, its two elements, 'ec' and 'thelion', are very close to 'ech' and 'thalion', Sindarin elements meaning 'to make' and 'strong'. Since the first Ecthelion was an elf-lord of Gondolin and made the city strong, so to speak, is this a possible translation of his name?

Olorin_TLA · 05-10-2004, 03:57 PM

Seems good to me.

I don't persoanlly think he was named that in recognition of his deeds for the city (though you never know, Elven mothers name with foresight, and Elves can choose their own descriptive names too) but because of his strength and maybe character too (helping others with it etc). But the translation seems sound.

Aiwendil · 05-10-2004, 04:34 PM

In "Of Maeglin" in HoMe XI, p.318, we learn that the archaic form was "Aegthelion". The root is STEL-, "remain firm", which gives "estel" (the prefixed form), "hope" and S. "thel", "intend, mean, purpose, resolve, will", Q. "thelma", "a fixed idea, will". It's hard to tell (for me at least) whether "Aegthelion" is from the prefixed or unprefixed form. I wonder also whether "-ion" is to be taken as "son" or just a masculine suffix. It might mean "Son of hope" or "Son of fixed resolve".

symestreem · 05-10-2004, 05:05 PM

Hmm... now we have to get into the discussion of whether archaic forms of a name are applicable. Not another canon argument!

Seriously though, I guess the real question is whether the name evolved from 'Aegthelion' to 'Ecthelion' in Middle-earth, or in Tolkien's writing. What did Tolkien intend for the name to be? And should we apply the evolution of a name outside Middle-earth to its evolution inside it?

Aiwendil · 05-10-2004, 05:13 PM

Sorry I didn't make it clear - "Aegthelion" is the archaic form intra-Legendarium. The whole etymology I just summarized comes from "Of Maeglin" which is c. 1970.

Elianna · 05-10-2004, 06:39 PM

In HoME V, in the Etymologies, it gives certain referance to Ecthelion: under the roots for spear and point. It seems, then, to mean "point (of spear)". Beyond that, you could take the '-ion' to be simply a male name suffix, or to mean 'son of'.

05-10-2004, 03:30 PM	#1
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Giving Strength The name "Ecthelion" apparently has no translation. However, its two elements, 'ec' and 'thelion', are very close to 'ech' and 'thalion', Sindarin elements meaning 'to make' and 'strong'. Since the first Ecthelion was an elf-lord of Gondolin and made the city strong, so to speak, is this a possible translation of his name?

05-10-2004, 03:57 PM	#2
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Seems good to me. I don't persoanlly think he was named that in recognition of his deeds for the city (though you never know, Elven mothers name with foresight, and Elves can choose their own descriptive names too) but because of his strength and maybe character too (helping others with it etc). But the translation seems sound. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

05-10-2004, 06:39 PM	#6
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	In HoME V, in the Etymologies, it gives certain referance to Ecthelion: under the roots for spear and point. It seems, then, to mean "point (of spear)". Beyond that, you could take the '-ion' to be simply a male name suffix, or to mean 'son of'. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

05-10-2004, 04:34 PM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	In "Of Maeglin" in HoMe XI, p.318, we learn that the archaic form was "Aegthelion". The root is STEL-, "remain firm", which gives "estel" (the prefixed form), "hope" and S. "thel", "intend, mean, purpose, resolve, will", Q. "thelma", "a fixed idea, will". It's hard to tell (for me at least) whether "Aegthelion" is from the prefixed or unprefixed form. I wonder also whether "-ion" is to be taken as "son" or just a masculine suffix. It might mean "Son of hope" or "Son of fixed resolve".

05-10-2004, 05:05 PM	#4
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Hmm... now we have to get into the discussion of whether archaic forms of a name are applicable. Not another canon argument! Seriously though, I guess the real question is whether the name evolved from 'Aegthelion' to 'Ecthelion' in Middle-earth, or in Tolkien's writing. What did Tolkien intend for the name to be? And should we apply the evolution of a name outside Middle-earth to its evolution inside it?

05-10-2004, 05:13 PM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Sorry I didn't make it clear - "Aegthelion" is the archaic form intra-Legendarium. The whole etymology I just summarized comes from "Of Maeglin" which is c. 1970.