Tuor/Gondolin/Text (thread moved from private forum)

[Tar Elenion]

Page 2, change the period after "remained" to a comma

Page 21, note 18 gates of steel. Page 23 gates of iron refering to the gates of Gondolin.

Page 22 note 26, the Q&E statement does not have the Noldor as 'lithe' like the Sindar, the 'but' indicates a contrast between the Noldor and Sindar, i.e. the Sindar are lithe.
(This note also repeats itself)

Page 23 "[gilded images] of two trees, and [likeness] should perhaps be 'in the likeness of'

Page 29 change "arid brave" to "and brave"

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

Page 33 'the Eldar have called them Valaraukar', should likely be Noldor, as both Sindar and Noldor are Eldar.

Page 37 and note 103 perhaps rather than 'Penlod, tallest of the Noldor save Turgon', just say Penlod the Tall.

Page 37 Salgant alone riding should be deleted. It has already been established that the Gondolindrim ride.

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

Page 40 "Eldar and Noldor" is redundant.

Page 43 note 125 'And he drove them back', "he" should be changed, or clarified

Page 50 Salgant being "old". Perhaps remove.

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

Page 57 and note 194, Gil-galad being King of the Noldor at the Mouths of Sirion may lead to conflict with IDril, Tuor and Earendil, Elwing ruling there. Also Ereinion is still valid as a name of Gil-galad.

Page 58 'Quendi the Light-elves', change Quendi to Vanyar.

Page 58 Earendil being smaller than Men seems apt for removal.

[Maédhros]

I could have sworn that Aiwendil had responed to these clarifications made by Tar-E.

Page 22 note 26, the Q&E statement does not have the Noldor as 'lithe' like the Sindar, the 'but' indicates a contrast between the Noldor and Sindar, i.e. the Sindar are lithe.

I would propose:

[Yet] was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. Indeed} [though indeed] the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for {Melko} [Morgoth], but {small were} they [were] <QE strong and tall, but> {and} slender {and very lithe} .

Just deleting the and very lithe part.

Page 23 "[gilded images] of two trees, and [likeness] should perhaps be 'in the likeness of'

I really like this.

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

An excellent point.

Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock as the {Noldoli} [Noldor], [except for the dwarves] (and this {Melko} [Morgoth] knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said:

Perhaps Aiwendil can come up with something better.

Page 37 Salgant alone riding should be deleted. It has already been established that the Gondolindrim ride.

They were dight with tassels of silver and tassels of gold, and a harp of silver shone in their blazonry upon a field of black; but {Salgant} [Talagand] bore one of gold, and he alone rode into battle of all the sons of the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim]{, and he was heavy and squat}.

I'm not sure why would we need to delete the part about Talagand riding, but what I would do is to remove the part in which he is heavy and squat, kind of goes against the description of the Ñoldor.

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

This is interesting, and you are right of course.
One solution that comes to my mind is to remove the references of the Moles in our account. As bad as those elves seemed to be, I don't think that in JRRT later writtings, those elves could have let Maeglin get away with that.

Now Tuor did this, though his valour leapt to the noise of war, that he might take farewell of Idril and {Eärendel} [Eärendil]; and speed them with a bodyguard down the secret way ere he returned himself to the battle throng to die if must be{: but he found a press of the Mole-folk about his door, and these were the grimmest and least good-hearted of folk that {Meglin} [Maeglin] might get in that city. Yet were they free {Noldoli} [Noldor] and under no spell of {Melko} [Morgoth]'s like their master, wherefore though for the lordship of {Meglin} [Maeglin] they aided not Idril, no more would they touch of his purpose despite all his curses}.
Now then {Meglin} [Maeglin] had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of {Eärendel} [Eärendil] to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness. There he now struggles and delays amid oaths while that folk of the Wing draw nigh − and lo! Tuor gives a shout so great that the Orcs hear it afar and waver at the sound of it. Like a crash of tempest the guard of the Wing were amid the men of the Mole, and these were stricken asunder. When {Meglin} [Maeglin] saw this he would stab {Eärendel} [Eärendil] with a short knife he had; but that child bit his left hand, that his teeth sank in, and he staggered, and stabbed weakly, and the mail of the small coat turned the blade aside; and thereupon Tuor was upon him and his wrath was terrible to see. He seized {Meglin} [Maeglin] by that hand that held the knife and broke the arm with the wrench, and then taking him by the middle leapt with him upon the walls, and flung him far out. Great was the fall of his body, and it smote {Amon Gwareth} [Amon Gwared] three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames; and the name of {Meglin} [Maeglin] has gone out in shame from among [the ]Eldar {and {Noldoli} [Noldor]}.
{Then the warriors of the Mole being more numerous than those few of the Wing, and loyal to their lord, came at Tuor, and there were great blows, but no man might stand before the wrath of Tuor, and they were smitten and driven to fly into what dark holes they might, or flung from the walls.} Then Tuor and his men must get them to the battle of the Gate, for the noise of it has grown very great, and Tuor has it still in his heart that the city may stand; yet with Idril he left there Voronwë against his will and some other swordsmen to be a guard for her till he returned or might send tidings from the fray.

This has the virtue of eliminating the Kinslaying factor reserved to the sons of Fëanor.

Page 40 "Eldar and Noldor" is redundant.

You are right of course. Done in the previous point.

Page 43 note 125 'And he drove them back', "he" should be changed, or clarified

I think that you are correct.

There Tuor slew Othrod a lord of the Orcs cleaving his helm, and Balcmeg he hewed asunder, and Lug he smote with his axe that his limbs were cut from beneath him at the knee, but Ecthelion shore through two captains of the goblins at a sweep and cleft the head of Orcobal their chiefest champion to his teeth; and by reason of the great doughtiness of those two lords they came even unto the Balrogs. {Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three} [And {he}[Echtelion] drove them back] , for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed; yet of the leap of that axe Dramborleg that was swung by the hand of Tuor were they still more afraid,

Is this better.

Page 50 Salgant being "old". Perhaps remove.

I'm not sure that it has to go. What do the others think.

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

I don't get this.

Page 58 'Quendi the Light-elves', change Quendi to Vanyar.

Quite correct.

[Findegil]

Posted by Tar Elenion:

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

Clearly the dwarves are better in delving but to mention they here as an expectation seems not good for me. What have the dwarves to do with that passages at all? For me it seems better to restrict the meaning:

Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock [among the Elves] as the {Noldoli} [Noldor], (and this {Melko} [Morgoth] knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said:

About Talagand: Riding did the Gondolindrim do, but did they ride into battle? And especially in this battle. We are talking about a street fight in a city with surly smooth paved streets. Of what worth would a cavalary be in that battle? As I see the situation in Gondolin there were very few horses in the city. The ways to aproche the city were to step for the dragons. I think they were stairs. Thus I think the horses were used only in the plain. That Talagand had one to ride was due to his haevieness. Thus I dont think we have remove anything here. The discription of the Noldor in Q&E is a generall typ-discription, exception from it were clearly possible. And clearly elves could be old even in the first age, so why not Talagand?

Posted by Tar Elenion:

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

That is clearly right, but eliminat the complet fight seems a bit out of picture. What did the house of the mole do during the battle when their leader was gone? And how did Meaglin explain that he had to leave them so short before a battle? I think that we should only skip any mentioning of potential slaying and let them be defeated into flight, when they tried to affeng thier dead leader:

Now Tuor did this, though his valour leapt to the noise of war, that he might take farewell of Idril and {Eärendel} [Eärendil]; and speed them with a bodyguard down the secret way ere he returned himself to the battle throng to die if must be: but he found a press of the Mole-folk about his door, and these were the grimmest and least good-hearted of folk that {Meglin} [Maeglin] might get in that city. Yet were they free {Noldoli} [Noldor] and under no spell of {Melko} [Morgoth]'s like their master, wherefore though for the lordship of {Meglin} [Maeglin] they aided not Idril, no more would they touch of his purpose despite all his curses.
Now then {Meglin} [Maeglin] had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of {Eärendel} [Eärendil] to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness. There he now struggles and delays amid oaths while that folk of the Wing draw nigh − and lo! Tuor gives a shout so great that the Orcs hear it afar and waver at the sound of it. Like a crash of tempest the guard of the Wing were amid the men of the Mole, and these were stricken asunder. When {Meglin} [Maeglin] saw this he would stab {Eärendel} [Eärendil] with a short knife he had; but that child bit his left hand, that his teeth sank in, and he staggered, and stabbed weakly, and the mail of the small coat turned the blade aside; and thereupon Tuor was upon him and his wrath was terrible to see. He seized {Meglin} [Maeglin] by that hand that held the knife and broke the arm with the wrench, and then taking him by the middle leapt with him upon the walls, and flung him far out. Great was the fall of his body, and it smote {Amon Gwareth} [Amon Gwared] three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames; and the name of {Meglin} [Maeglin] has gone out in shame from among [Sindar]{Eldar} and {Noldoli} [Noldor].
Then the warriors of the Mole being more numerous than those few of the Wing, and loyal to their lord, came at Tuor, and there were great blows, but no man might stand before the wrath of Tuor, and they were smitten and driven to fly into what dark holes they might{, or flung from the walls}. Then Tuor and his men must get them to the battle of the Gate, for the noise of it has grown very great, and Tuor has it still in his heart that the city may stand; yet with Idril he left there Voronwë against his will and some other swordsmen to be a guard for her till he returned or might send tidings from the fray.

I alos changed here "Eldar and Noldoli" to "Sindar and Noldor". If Tolkien made a splited reference than we should go with that if we can.

Posted by Tar Elenion:

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

What Tar Elenion means is that Sorontar is the Quenya form of the name. Thus a reference to the Eldar is out of place. I suggets that

... whom the {Eldar}[Noldor] named Sorontar ...

would be okay.


With the other points I agree with what Maedhros suggested.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Quotes are from T-E except where noted.

Page 2, change the period after "remained" to a comma

Yes, this appears to just be a typo.

Page 21, note 18 gates of steel. Page 23 gates of iron refering to the gates of Gondolin.

"Gates of steel" is from Q30, so on page 23 "iron" ought to be changed to "steel".

Page 22 note 26, the Q&E statement does not have the Noldor as 'lithe' like the Sindar, the 'but' indicates a contrast between the Noldor and Sindar, i.e. the Sindar are lithe.

I've looked again at Q&E and I simply have to disagree with this. The whole sentence is aimed at establishing the similarity between the Noldor and Sindar, with a contrast only being introduced in the following sentence, referring to their eyes. I think by far the more natural reading is to take "lithe" as contrasting with "strong and tall".

I suppose if we want to be extremely cautious, we could delete "and very lithe" as Maedhros suggests, as this would make no statement one way or another and so agree with either reading.

Page 23 "[gilded images] of two trees, and [likeness] should perhaps be 'in the likeness of'

This sounds good.

Page 29 change "arid brave" to "and brave"

Another typo.

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

I like Findegil's suggestion:

Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock [among the Elves] as the {Noldoli} [Noldor], (and this {Melko} [Morgoth] knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said:

Page 33 'the Eldar have called them Valaraukar', should likely be Noldor, as both Sindar and Noldor are Eldar.

Yes, it definitely should be Noldor.

Page 37 and note 103 perhaps rather than 'Penlod, tallest of the Noldor save Turgon', just say Penlod the Tall.

As I recall this was one of the last bits we struggled with. I do still think that "tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" sounds a little awkward - I suppose I'm now inclined to follow Tar-Elenion's suggestion.

Page 37 Salgant alone riding should be deleted. It has already been established that the Gondolindrim ride.

Maedhros wrote:

I'm not sure why would we need to delete the part about Talagand riding, but what I would do is to remove the part in which he is heavy and squat, kind of goes against the description of the Ñoldor.

If indeed the other Gondolindrim ride as well, then he cannot "alone" of "all the sons of the Gondolindrim" ride into battle. As for him being heavy and squat - I don't really see a need to delete it, though I do understand your doubt about it. I could go either way, I suppose.

Findegil wrote:

About Talagand: Riding did the Gondolindrim do, but did they ride into battle? And especially in this battle. We are talking about a street fight in a city with surly smooth paved streets. Of what worth would a cavalary be in that battle? As I see the situation in Gondolin there were very few horses in the city. The ways to aproche the city were to step for the dragons. I think they were stairs. Thus I think the horses were used only in the plain. That Talagand had one to ride was due to his haevieness. Thus I dont think we have remove anything here.

But the description of Talagand here has a sense of generality - it does not say that he alone rode into this battle (as it cannot, for this battle has not yet begun); it says that he alone rode into battle.

Forgive me if this is obvious, but where is it said that the Gondolindrim ride into battle?

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

I'm not entirely sure that having a few Elves die here would violate the First/Second/Third numbering of the kin-slayings (think about all the battles that come in between the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth battles of Beleriand). But to be safe, I think we should perhaps follow Findegil's suggestion, simply deleting "or flung from the walls".

Page 40 "Eldar and Noldor" is redundant.

I'd go with "Sindar and Noldor" to retain the distinction, as per Findegil's suggestion.

Page 43 note 125 'And he drove them back', "he" should be changed, or clarified

Very true. I'd simply go with "Ecthelion" as Maedhros suggests.

Page 50 Salgant being "old". Perhaps remove.

I don't see any need to.

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

Yes, this should be "Noldor".

Page 57 and note 194, Gil-galad being King of the Noldor at the Mouths of Sirion may lead to conflict with IDril, Tuor and Earendil, Elwing ruling there. Also Ereinion is still valid as a name of Gil-galad.

This has been extensively discussed elsewhere. As for Rodnor vs. Ereinion - I thought that we had adopted "Ereinion", in which case the text is simply a mistake.

Another note on this page - it had escaped me that we had placed:

All this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further

. . . at the end of the fragment. This is simply bizarre. It ought to be deleted.

Page 58 'Quendi the Light-elves', change Quendi to Vanyar.

Yes.

Page 58 Earendil being smaller than Men seems apt for removal.

I don't see a need to remove it; it simply says that he is "smaller than most men". Hurin was short despite being of the tall house of Hador. Why can't Earendil be?

[Maédhros]

In response to Aiwendil's comments:

I suppose if we want to be extremely cautious, we could delete "and very lithe" as Maedhros suggests, as this would make no statement one way or another and so agree with either reading.

I guess that it is better to play it safe.

I too like Findegil's suggestion when dealing with the fact that the Ñoldor are the best of the Elves in the delving of rocks.

As I recall this was one of the last bits we struggled with. I do still think that "tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" sounds a little awkward - I suppose I'm now inclined to follow Tar-Elenion's suggestion.

What about you Findegil? I can go either way.

If indeed the other Gondolindrim ride as well, then he cannot "alone" of "all the sons of the Gondolindrim" ride into battle. As for him being heavy and squat - I don't really see a need to delete it, though I do understand your doubt about it. I could go either way, I suppose.

I get your point about him ridding into battle alone. As for Talagand being heavy and squat, it doesn't seem to me like the description of an elf.

I'm not entirely sure that having a few Elves die here would violate the First/Second/Third numbering of the kin-slayings (think about all the battles that come in between the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth battles of Beleriand). But to be safe, I think we should perhaps follow Findegil's suggestion, simply deleting "or flung from the walls".

I like Findegil's suggestion too. For me the problems with the elves dying is that in this particular case is that they are Gondolindrim vs. Gondolindrim. It would be a minor kinslaying to me.

I'm in agreement with the other points made by Aiwendil.

[Tar Elenion]

Aiwendil got my point about Salgant riding (which seemed to me as well a general statement). The description of the riders from the 7th Gate and the captains and chieftains being mounted in UT establishes that the Gondolindrim warriors did ride.
I don't recall a specific description of any of the Gondolindrim riding to any battle, but it would seem odd that there would be descriptions of their mounted warriors but they would not ride to battle in for example the Nirnaeth.

In my reading the "save it be old Salagant" sounds more like a physical description of his appearence (i.e. he looked like an old man), rather than just his age.

Some of the other things I disagree with from my own veiwpoint/perception (e.g. the small Earendil), but it really does not effect anything, so no real point in arguing it at this time.

I hope the original post was constructively helpful.