Eldest?

Who is the eldest? Bombadil or Treebeard? This question just occured to me a few hours ago as I was rereading The Two Towers. This is from chapter 5 The White Rider.

Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth.

Bombadil himself quite clearly states that he is the eldest, and this is in seeming contradiction. I am afraid I cannot offer much more than this question, my own feeble reasoning is that Tolkien is implying that Tom isnt exactly a living thing. He certainly is alive but I think not in the sense of the Children of Eru or the free creatures (which may shed a bit of light as to his nature). He is his own. That is all I have to go on, terribly sorry it is not much.

[ninja91]

I suppose that Treebeard is older than Bombadil. I mean, obviously Treebeard is said to have been around for eons. And Bombadil? It is not known, nor is it documented. Therefore, I would say that Treebeard has a couple more years under his belt.

[davem]

Originally Posted by ninja91

I suppose that Treebeard is older than Bombadil. I mean, obviously Treebeard is said to have been around for eons. And Bombadil? It is not known, nor is it documented. Therefore, I would say that Treebeard has a couple more years under his belt.

Well, Tom does tell the Hobbits 'Eldest, that's what I am.' But in an early draft Goldberry responds 'He's not the eldest - he's a very naughty boy!' - however Tolkien removed this for the published version, along with the section where Merry & Pippin at Isengard have a long discussion on 'What have the Elves ever done for us?'

Of course, Tom is clearly a bit of a looney, so maybe you have to take that with a pinch of salt

[Farael]

After reading Bombi's quote (or well, Tolkien's quote on Bombi's post) I was wondering... Gandalf says that Fangorn (Treebeard) is the oldest living thing walking under the sun... is it possible that Tom Bombadill walked a different "plane" than the rest? I mean, if he was some sort of Ainur he might very well be beyond the laws of physics, space and time. So perhaps what Gandalf meant that, of the "normal" living things, Fangorn was the oldest... after all, if Gandalf was the Maiar Olorin, wouldn't Olorin be older than anything in Arda?

Farael, thank you for saying eloquently what I tried to at the very end of my post. I agree with what you said. I personally like Tom, esp. for his detachement from the world. Which I beleive is why he is excused when Treebeard is described as eldest. For certainly if the Vala and such powers were to be included then Manwe (I am supposing here I do not know the exact order of creation) would take the cake.

And yet here I am contradicting myself. Tom is not exactly like the Vala. He is certainly connected to Middle-earth (Id Est: the theory of Tom as the physical manifestation of nature). So some measurements of time must apply to him.

As now my mind has settled that Mithrandir meant Treebeard is Eldest of the four primary free creatures. Expect my mind to change soon. Curse indesicion.

[Texadan]

Bombadil also tells the hobbits...

Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...When the elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

If that's true, it seems Tom was there when only the Valar lived in the world. Could he have been one of them? His power and joy is in singing and it was through singing the song of Ilúvatar that the Ainur, which included the Valar, made the world.

And, to be a bit facetious, Gandalf did say that Treebeard was the oldest thing that walked the earth. Bombadil never walked. He hopped; he jumped; he danced.

[Rhod the Red]

What do you mean by eldest, Bombi?

Originally Posted by FOTR

"Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless- before the Dark Lord came from the Outside.

If Tom Bombadil were referring to Melkor, than hands-down Bombadil is older than Treebeard. And even with Sauron, since Sauron arrived at generally the same time as Melkor.

If we remember...

In Silmarillion... When Aule made the race of the dwarves... Eru came and was angry, and the Dwarves were to be kept sleeping until after the Children of Illuvatar were to awake...

After Aule told Yavanna the story, she said "your children and my children will not get along" or something along those lines (her children were plants.. trees.. etc)..

Aule said that even the Children of Illuvatar will have need of wood, food, etc...

Yavanna, worried, went to speak to Manwe about it... Manwe asked Yavanna which of her creations were most dear to her, and she said Trees... so Illuvatar revealed the Shephards of the Trees... spirits that would enter the trees once the children of Illuvatar had awaken, to protect the trees...

So Treebeard awoke at the time after the Children of Illuvatar awoke... Before that - entities already roamed the earth... entities which came from the outside - such as the Valar... and the Maiar... Tom is not Valar... so it makes sense that he must be Maiar - in which case he is older than Treebeard..

Another puzzeling thing is why Gandalf (Olorin) calls Treebeard "Eldest"...

Olorin is of the Maiar... older than the Earth... and much older than Trees... and the shephards of trees - so why does he call Treebeard "Eldest"?

[Boromir88]

Another puzzeling thing is why Gandalf (Olorin) calls Treebeard "Eldest"...

First...read my signature.

Second, in one of my posts before:

Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves {illegible} until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking.

As far as who Tom Bombadil is, there are several interesting and indepth threads. Being a Maiar is a possibility, perhaps even just a nature spirit, or perhaps as I think Tom B. is Tolkien.

[Arathul]

Tom is a merry fellow, that i'm pretty sure

Actually Tolkien did mention that he deliberately leave Tom Bombadil as an enigma. a lingering mystery. in fact, that's what make LOTR so interesting. he deliberately leave several blank spots of which he let the imagination of readers waging freely and his books become a topic of endless discussion.

A bit of topic: Did you know the "Fair Lady" that Tom mention when he took the treasures from the barrow?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

It's possible of course that Tom Bombadil and Treebeard are one and the same being , because there is no time in the LOTR or indeed in the entire recorded history of Middle-Earth or beyond when they are ever seen together .

I am the Mouth of Sauron .