Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[Corsair_Caruso]

Tolkien's notes of the personages and history of his Legendarium are far ranging and include countless characters, events, lands, peoples, creatures, cultures, languages, etc... The most developed areas of the Legendarium are (arguably) the parts that saw publication in his lifetime: the War of the Ring and the events in the century beforehand. Following that, the events of the Wars of the Jewels are the most detailed, though that is much less consistent due to the death of the Professor before he could finish a final, definitive version of the Elder Days. Still, we have quite a bit to work from. The events of the Third Age as a whole might be as developed as this, especially when we combine the incomplete narratives of Unfinished Tales with the Appendices of RotK and the unpublished notes regarding them found in latter volumes of the HoMe.

Following that I'd say the Second Age has the most development, but this is really quite spotty, with really only a general outline, one or two narratives and some essays.

Then we have various fragments, notes, and other unpublished material from various other time periods, as well as earlier iterations of the Legendarium that give us hints as to the Professor's thought process, though little definitive indication as to where he might have gone from there.

What topics, specifically, do you wish the Professor had been able to make a firm decision on? What would you like to know more about? What people, or cultures, or historical events have you read about that leave you wanting more information?

I, for one, would like to know more about Númenor, across the board. Culture, language, history, personages of import, everything. That's very broad, but hey, I find the entire concept fascinating and I wish it could have been explored much more thoroughly.

I also would like to be able to read some narratives from the early Third Age, or even the late Second Age, set in the early years of Arnor and Gondor. I want to know more about how the two kingdoms were organized, the interactions between the colonists and the ships bearing the news of Númenor's destruction. I want to know the circumstances under which he ancestors of the Princes of Dol Amroth gained their title from Elendil. I want accounts of the foundation of Osgiliath, Minas Anor and Minas Ithil. I want to hear the tale of the construction of Isengard and Orthanc. There is so much more I wish I could know and read.

I think I'd also like to know a lot more about the Black Númenóreans in Umbar, how their culture functioned in the early years after Númenor's destruction. I'd love to hear tell of their rejection of the claim of the House of Andúnië on the kingship of the colonies. Did they retain Adûnaic as their daily speech, and if so, for how long? Was their a creole that grew up out of a blend of Haradic elements with Adûnaic? How long did the Black Númenoreans retain their dominance in Umbar's culture. What went on in the colonies farther south? Where was Beruthiel from and what prompted Tarannon Falastur to forge a political alliance via marriage?

I guess you could summarize my specific interests at this point into the overarching topic of "Númeóreans and the cultures descended from them." I find them perhaps even more fascinating than Elves, and I find Elves exceedingly interesting.

But I've gone on way too long. What interests you? Elvish culture? Dwarvish language? Inheritance laws in societies that experience both immortality and (essentially) reincarnation? Religion in Arda? What topics do you wish you could know more about, and what do you think and/or theorize about them now?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

snip<--What topics, specifically, do you wish the Professor had been able to make a firm decision on? What would you like to know more about? What people, or cultures, or historical events have you read about that leave you wanting more information?

Definitely want to know more about Numenorean presence in the longer-term mythology. The Caves of the Forgotten had implication, and we saw The Stone of Erech as an example of what Tolkien sometimes did with breaks of Oaths of Fealty.

And beyond that - I would love to have seen The Second Prophesy of Mandos developed where, in one reading, the earth is broken after The Last Battle and the Silmarils gathered, and returned by Feanor to Yavanna, for a Rekindling of the Two Trees. I read just the other day that the Numenoreans of the Caves of the Forgotten get called to lend a hand.

I, for one, would like to know more about Númenor, across the board. Culture, language, history, personages of import, everything. That's very broad, but hey, I find the entire concept fascinating and I wish it could have been explored much more thoroughly.

More about their Lore. Their blades were sometimes woven with their variation on spells, in a tantalising glimpse we saw in Merry's blade of the Westernesse and its power, over even the Nazgul.

And DEFINITELY, I'd have totally loved to have known much, much more about Silmarien and her world, bearing and home. The Ring of Barahir she bore through her bloodline.

....I want to know the circumstances under which he ancestors of the Princes of Dol Amroth gained their title from Elendil. I want accounts of the foundation of Osgiliath, Minas Anor and Minas Ithil. I want to hear the tale of the construction of Isengard and Orthanc. There is so much more I wish I could know and read.

Gilmith - Starmist - sister of the Founding Father of Dol Amroth. I wanted to know her story, for she had such a beautiful name. Did she bear children, and was there her lineage somewhere in Dol Amroth.

I think I'd also like to know a lot more about the Black Númenóreans in Umbar, how their culture functioned in the early years after Númenor's destruction. I'd love to hear tell of their rejection of the claim of the House of Andúnië on the kingship of the colonies. Did they retain Adûnaic as their daily speech, and if so, for how long? Was their a creole that grew up out of a blend of Haradic elements with Adûnaic? How long did the Black Númenoreans retain their dominance in Umbar's culture. What went on in the colonies farther south? Where was Beruthiel from and what prompted Tarannon Falastur to forge a political alliance via marriage?

Yes - those fellas were pretty full on in their rivalry with the northern realms of Arnor and Gondor.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

But I've gone on way too long. What interests you? Elvish culture? Dwarvish language? Inheritance laws in societies that experience both immortality and (essentially) reincarnation? Religion in Arda? What topics do you wish you could know more about, and what do you think and/or theorize about them now?

I would devour an entire trilogy on the eastern exploits of the two Blue Wizards.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I would devour an entire trilogy on the eastern exploits of the two Blue Wizards.

Echo copy ditto Whatever happened to them? We hear a tantalising snippet 'fell into Sorcery', which is somehow different to Lore, Pukel Men and their magic and Elvish Magic. Does anybody know anything about this area?

One written from the perspective of Pengolodh at the Mouths of Sirion and one by a Gondorian scholar living during the reign of Elessar II.

Yeah, what happened to the five kids? They must have been exceptional in many ways, and each of them almost wholly half-Elven! Did any of them fix the Anor Stone?

Detailed maps, the different cultures of the Elven tribes and what other settlements might have existed besides Tirion and Alqualonde.
What did Findis and Irime do? Did thy marry and have children? What other members of the Finwean household were forgotten by time?
How do the Elves in the blessed realm go about daily tasks? Do they have an economy, what other important families or clans existed in Eldamar? What was the weather like? The landscape? Flora? Fauna?

And the same for the Elven Realms of the Exiles; was Hithlum a rather dry and desolate moor landscape like I have always imagined? What were the names and locations of the civilian settlements in the Feanorian lands? Lindon? Eregion? Dorwinion?

Yes very. I'll add Mithlond and whatever happened to the Elves there, and how many Elves lived there at end of TA. And Edhellond.

I'd like to know more about Eol - both about his origins and about his strange relationship with Aredhel. I wish Tolkien had made a clear decision on whether he was a kinsman of Thingol or a Tatyarin Avar

Yes - I want to know more about what Morgoth actually did to Maeglin when Maeglin was captured. All we know is that he came back all creepy, but we don't know what Morgoth's tools were. And I'd like to know more about the relationship between Morgoth and Sauron.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Yeah, what happened to the five kids? They must have been exceptional in many ways, and each of them almost wholly half-Elven! Did any of them fix the Anor Stone?

I'm curious about the 'five kids' you're talking about here, Ivriniel. Are you talking about Aragorn and Arwen's children? All we know about them is that there were at least three: one son, Eldarion, who succeeded their father as king, and at least two daughters. I say 'at least' because all we have to go on is the plural 'daughters'.

[Kuruharan]

Just more about dwarves, please.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I'm curious about the 'five kids' you're talking about here, Ivriniel. Are you talking about Aragorn and Arwen's children? All we know about them is that there were at least three: one son, Eldarion, who succeeded their father as king, and at least two daughters. I say 'at least' because all we have to go on is the plural 'daughters'.

Hmmm strange...I could have sworn that it was five as well (Edarion and four girls) seems to be a fairly common form of fanon.

[Belegorn]

That's a lot of kids for someone like Aragorn.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Hmmm strange...I could have sworn that it was five as well (Edarion and four girls) seems to be a fairly common form of fanon.

I've seen that myself in fanfiction; but I've also seen absolutely no evidence of Tolkien writing about that number of children. That said, there's nothing to say that Aragorn and Arwen didn't actually have five. It's just that people should be careful not to confuse what's in fanfiction with what Tolkien actually wrote.

I remember reading a nice story about Faramir and Éowyn, which included them having three children: their son Elboron and two named daughters. I enjoyed it, but while reading, made the distinction between the writer's imagination and what I read in Volume 12 of HoME.

[Orphalesion]

I'd love to have a whole book of lore about Eldamar. Detailed maps, the different cultures of the Elven tribes and what other settlements might have existed besides Tirion and Alqualonde.
What did Findis and Irime do? Did thy marry and have children? What other members of the Finwean household were forgotten by time?
How do the Elves in the blessed realm go about daily tasks? Do they have an economy, what other important families or clans existed in Eldamar? What was the weather like? The landscape? Flora? Fauna?

And the same for the Elven Realms of the Exiles; was Hithlum a rather dry and desolate moor landscape like I have always imagined? What were the names and locations of the civilian settlements in the Feanorian lands? Lindon? Eregion? Dorwinion?

And more details about the Avari and the realms of Elf and Man east of the Blue Mountains that Sauron destroyed in the Second Age.

[Aiwendil]

There are, of course, many, many things I'd like to know more about, but I'll try to limit myself to naming a few of the bigger ones.

Like Corsair_caruso and Ivriniel, I would love to have to have more writings about the Numenoreans and, particularly, Numenor during the Second Age. I enjoyed 'Aldarion and Erendis' not only for the story itself but also for the unique window it provides into Numenorean life. I would love more stories set in and around Numenor.

Andsigil mentioned the Blue Wizards, and I'd certainly devour a trilogy about them as well. But the wizard who really fascinates me, for some reason, is Radagast (hence my name). I would really love to have more information about him and his activities.

It might sound odd to say that I'd like to know more about Sauron - I mean, after all, he's not exactly an obscure character - but I really would like to have more writings about Silmarillion-era Sauron, the cunning sorcerer, lord of werewolves, master of phantoms. What was Tol-in-Gaurhoth like, for example? What strange and terrible things went on in Taur-nu-Fuin after Sauron took up living there? For that matter, I wouldn't mind knowing more about his other 'Necromancer' phase, in Dol Guldur. I'd also like to know what Sauron was up to during the last years of the First Age, and whether he played any part in the Great Battle.

I'd like to know more about Eol - both about his origins and about his strange relationship with Aredhel. I wish Tolkien had made a clear decision on whether he was a kinsman of Thingol or a Tatyarin Avar.

I'd like to know more about the seven clans of Dwarves - even just knowing whether the Firebeards lived in Nogrod and the Broadbeams in Belegost or vice versa!

I'd also like to know more about the Druedain in the First Age. For that matter, about the people of Haleth in general. 'The Wanderings of Hurin' makes them an intriguing, proto-Democratic people, and there are hints of unusual gender equity.

The other night I had a wonderful dream that I was in a bookstore and happened upon The History of Middle-earth volumes XIII and XIV. If such books existed, those are some of the things I'd most hope to find in them.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The other night I had a wonderful dream that I was in a bookstore and happened upon The History of Middle-earth volumes XIII and XIV. If such books existed, those are some of the things I'd most hope to find in them.

I'd love a Middle-Earth version of "A World of Ice and Fire" or better yet a bunch of them. One written from the perspective of Pengolodh at the Mouths of Sirion and one by a Gondorian scholar living during the reign of Elessar II.

[Mithadan]

I always found Pengolodh (and Aelfwine), both as a narrative device and a character, to be very compelling and entertaining. I am not entirely sure what JRRT decided about these two persons, though both appear very late in his writings. I'd like to hear more about both (and I have, of course, written more about Aelfwine, though, grievously, our fan fiction forum is down and perhaps out.

[Bêthberry]

I would like to know what Tolkien's diary--which has not been published--has to say about the Legendarium, assuming the diary was written during the early years of its development, as well as if it mentions anything about Tolkien's interest in nonsense, which seems related more to his early works and minor works rather than anything in The Silm.