A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elianna · 07-22-2004, 07:15 AM

You guys think that it's a valid point, no matter how unlikely, that Gríma was just as such under Saruman's control as Théoden was, and so wasn't really bad at all?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-22-2004, 07:18 AM

Possibly. Theoden did not commit acts as evil as Grima did commit, but then Theoden was much stronger than Grima (as well as being 'further away' from Saruman).

Though, would a good person have been swayed so much by Saruman? Was not Grima already wicked?

Amanaduial the archer · 07-22-2004, 03:45 PM

It could be that Grima, like all men, was simply weak, and that the power of trhe ring was too much for him - the temptation of everything it could promise, especially when times were hard and uncertain for men. Another arguement in Grima's favour could be that he had seen Saruman's power at work on Theoden - he may have been in fear of it, as he had seen it at very close quarters, and so was in no doubt of what it could do and to what extent.

However, I don't think this is the whole story: mainly, Grima was probably just out for what he could get - and he didn't really care for what got in his way. I don't think this can merely be attributed to the 'weakness of men' which is mentioned so often by the elves - this is something much closer to home. Mainly, I think Grima was just too selfish - unlike the other Men in the story, he didn't resist the ring, he was working with it. But when things stopped going his way, he pleaded that he had merely been under it's power, asking that the Kings would take him in - basically, he would have changed his allegiance in a second. He was always, it seems to me, just out for what he could get.

gorthaur_cruel · 07-23-2004, 10:18 AM

This is my view of what Wormtongue's work was.

He was to feed Theoden some poison-like things that kept him weak and frail(I was rather skeptical about the poisonous drugs, but Tolkien confirmed this in one of his letters). Like any other old men feeling "old", Theoden would then not be willing to take care of all the small matters of his kingdom, being tired. Wormtongue knew this, and so approached the king with sweet words. Most people like words that praise you, however false it may be. Wormtongue probably did do some things of service, at first, to gain Theoden's trust.

He then used his men to keep all reports of happenings from reaching Theoden, or twisting them with his own little lies. He sent news of what was happening to Saruman. Then, he told Theoden that Eomer was plotting against Theodred for heirship(confirmed in Unfinished Tales). Theoden, not knowing any better and trusting Wormtongue too much, would have believed this. Grima would've kept a lot of Eomer's victories secret from Theoden, or belittled them while exaggerating his defeats. Gandalf then came and exposed Theoden to the outer air, making him realise that he was not as old and weak as Grima made him out to be. Wormtnogue did seem rather overprotective, didn't he? Gandalf helped Theoden realise that things were not as bad as they seemed under Wormtongue's lies. Notice how Theoden didn't really turn on Grima as suddenly as in the film. He still couldn't shake off his years of trust for Grima. So he gave Wormtongue a chance of aiding him, which Wormtongue denied. Even so, Theoden remarks that he misses Grima later on.

So, to answer your question, Theoden was manipulated by Wormtongue. Wormtongue was acting of his own free will, and as Gandalf points out, his reward was to be Eowyn. Saruman did not manipulate him, but rather promised him rewards. And Theoden was never under Saruman's "control", not in the books. There is no exorcism in the books, but rather wise words by Gandalf.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 07-25-2004, 03:03 AM

I think that Grima didn't appreciate honour nor sincerity but was very fascinated by power and was eager to rule. That doesn't instantly make him a bad person but yet too easily seduced by slight chances to rise in rank. To Saruman that kind of people would have been too easy to brainwash. Saruman used Grima to gain his own goals but I tend to think that Grima acted willingly and knowing the cosequences.

In the book, after Isengard had been defeated and Saruman and Grima were just two vagabonds, Grima told that he hated Saruman and yet he didn't leave him. He didn't know how to live without his master anymore for sure a wizard had been a mighty ally before things started to go bad for them.
So, to the question: basically yes, that's possible.

07-25-2004, 07:34 PM

I think Grima just started out as someone who saw an advantage allying himself with the stroger power of Saruman, and then he was in it for himself - how can I best profit from the situation. I did not think that Grima was evil to start with, he was just corrupted by power and greed. When he had been turned out of Edoras and returned to Saruman, his will was all but broken and at this point he became a creature of Saruman, yet retaining enough of his personality to regail against the treatment he endured but not strong enough to escape.

07-22-2004, 07:15 AM	#1
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma You guys think that it's a valid point, no matter how unlikely, that Gríma was just as such under Saruman's control as Théoden was, and so wasn't really bad at all? __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

07-22-2004, 07:18 AM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Possibly. Theoden did not commit acts as evil as Grima did commit, but then Theoden was much stronger than Grima (as well as being 'further away' from Saruman). Though, would a good person have been swayed so much by Saruman? Was not Grima already wicked? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-22-2004, 03:45 PM	#3
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,347	Selfishness? It could be that Grima, like all men, was simply weak, and that the power of trhe ring was too much for him - the temptation of everything it could promise, especially when times were hard and uncertain for men. Another arguement in Grima's favour could be that he had seen Saruman's power at work on Theoden - he may have been in fear of it, as he had seen it at very close quarters, and so was in no doubt of what it could do and to what extent. However, I don't think this is the whole story: mainly, Grima was probably just out for what he could get - and he didn't really care for what got in his way. I don't think this can merely be attributed to the 'weakness of men' which is mentioned so often by the elves - this is something much closer to home. Mainly, I think Grima was just too selfish - unlike the other Men in the story, he didn't resist the ring, he was working with it. But when things stopped going his way, he pleaded that he had merely been under it's power, asking that the Kings would take him in - basically, he would have changed his allegiance in a second. He was always, it seems to me, just out for what he could get. __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

07-25-2004, 03:03 AM	#5
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	I think that Grima didn't appreciate honour nor sincerity but was very fascinated by power and was eager to rule. That doesn't instantly make him a bad person but yet too easily seduced by slight chances to rise in rank. To Saruman that kind of people would have been too easy to brainwash. Saruman used Grima to gain his own goals but I tend to think that Grima acted willingly and knowing the cosequences. In the book, after Isengard had been defeated and Saruman and Grima were just two vagabonds, Grima told that he hated Saruman and yet he didn't leave him. He didn't know how to live without his master anymore for sure a wizard had been a mighty ally before things started to go bad for them. So, to the question: basically yes, that's possible. __________________ Fenris Wolf

07-23-2004, 10:18 AM	#4
gorthaur_cruel Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 92	This is my view of what Wormtongue's work was. He was to feed Theoden some poison-like things that kept him weak and frail(I was rather skeptical about the poisonous drugs, but Tolkien confirmed this in one of his letters). Like any other old men feeling "old", Theoden would then not be willing to take care of all the small matters of his kingdom, being tired. Wormtongue knew this, and so approached the king with sweet words. Most people like words that praise you, however false it may be. Wormtongue probably did do some things of service, at first, to gain Theoden's trust. He then used his men to keep all reports of happenings from reaching Theoden, or twisting them with his own little lies. He sent news of what was happening to Saruman. Then, he told Theoden that Eomer was plotting against Theodred for heirship(confirmed in Unfinished Tales). Theoden, not knowing any better and trusting Wormtongue too much, would have believed this. Grima would've kept a lot of Eomer's victories secret from Theoden, or belittled them while exaggerating his defeats. Gandalf then came and exposed Theoden to the outer air, making him realise that he was not as old and weak as Grima made him out to be. Wormtnogue did seem rather overprotective, didn't he? Gandalf helped Theoden realise that things were not as bad as they seemed under Wormtongue's lies. Notice how Theoden didn't really turn on Grima as suddenly as in the film. He still couldn't shake off his years of trust for Grima. So he gave Wormtongue a chance of aiding him, which Wormtongue denied. Even so, Theoden remarks that he misses Grima later on. So, to answer your question, Theoden was manipulated by Wormtongue. Wormtongue was acting of his own free will, and as Gandalf points out, his reward was to be Eowyn. Saruman did not manipulate him, but rather promised him rewards. And Theoden was never under Saruman's "control", not in the books. There is no exorcism in the books, but rather wise words by Gandalf.

07-25-2004, 07:34 PM	#6
shia'tan Guest Posts: n/a	I think Grima just started out as someone who saw an advantage allying himself with the stroger power of Saruman, and then he was in it for himself - how can I best profit from the situation. I did not think that Grima was evil to start with, he was just corrupted by power and greed. When he had been turned out of Edoras and returned to Saruman, his will was all but broken and at this point he became a creature of Saruman, yet retaining enough of his personality to regail against the treatment he endured but not strong enough to escape.