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02-10-2009, 12:48 PM | #1 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Branch thread: Tolkien's military technology
Tolkien, interestingly, postulated a world in which weaponry remained essentially stagnent for thousands of years, or even declined. The impression one gets, from the Nirnaeth right through to the Morannon, is that miltech was fixed at about the level of our 12th century or so.
Now, why would this be? Obviously, he wanted to keep gunpowder and firearms out of his world, and that would be conceivably an argument against plate armor (although it's accepted today that 15th-century 'white harness' was actually less cumbersome than mail, in T's day the old notion of helpless ironclad tortoises that needed hoisting into the saddle was still the accepted view). Nonetherless, he could easily have atributed supertech to Dwarves or Noldor, even if just for the First Age- so why not? After all, if his viewpoint is the earlier Middle Ages and its looking back at the Ancients, we know that Roman legionaries (at least for a while) wore the banded lorica segmentata. Also the missing crossbows- although I suppose they could exist without mention. But I would think the x-bow would be a perfect Orcish weapon. (Not so the Elves, who presumably have ample time for the training required to make a good bowman, or the Rohirrim, since a x-bow ain't a cavalry weapon). But for Orcs- a cheaply made piece of low-tech which requires little trainng, just a degree of brute strength. The AK-47 of the ancient world. And again, why not the Dwarves, esp. since one would assume a Dwarf could stirrup-cock a much heavier xbow than a Man?
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02-10-2009, 12:51 PM | #2 | |
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02-10-2009, 12:57 PM | #3 |
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02-10-2009, 03:24 PM | #4 |
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02-10-2009, 03:54 PM | #5 | |
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I think that using old-style weapons makes the heroes into warriors rather than soldiers. Also, remember, Tolkien liked the Anglo-Saxon times, and they didn't have that sort of technology (at least in Europe) then.
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02-10-2009, 04:16 PM | #6 | |
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I think (though I don't happen to have LOTR on me), that Faramir was shot with a bolt. I think Imrahil says he removed it and if so it certainly implies a crossbow to have loosed it . Apart from the fact that the longbow is embedded in the English psyche in the way that crossbows aren't (technically all Englishmen are obliged by an obselete but not repealed law to carry out two hours of longbow practice daily!!!), there is a elegant simplicity about it - elves I am sure would be slowed down by the crossbow's action since a experienced English longbowman would be expected to loose up to 20 aimed arrows a minute, an elf with hands that move quicker than sight could surely do better.
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02-10-2009, 06:35 PM | #7 |
Sage & Onions
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Bling Armour
It does seem that the military technology of Midddle Earth actually declined somewhat.
Elrond refers to a 'host of elves in armour of old' or somesuch, implying that the Third Age armour was inferior to what was used in the First Age perhaps? Certainly the Gate-Guards of Gondolin had some visually impressive stuff but the exact type of armour is not described in detail. I wonder if the 1st Age Elves had discovered face-hardening, a metallurgical technique that makes armour practically arrow-proof? Or could be that they had plenty of Mithril! Also the steel bows of the 2nd Age Numenoreans are mentioned, but no hint of them in the Third Age. At least we can be sure that the stirrup was used by cavalry, as Eowyn mentions the stirrup-cup.
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02-10-2009, 07:22 PM | #8 | |
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But how did they get mithril? (And, yes, I know they built a whole gate out of the stuff). And supposedly even the Noldor never made mail as good as the best Dwarven stuff.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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02-10-2009, 10:17 PM | #9 |
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The word used is "dart," rather than "bolt." I have the impression that a dart could mean either an arrow or a small javelin of some sort.
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02-10-2009, 10:37 PM | #10 | |
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In regards to 'darts' and 'bolts'
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'Then the engines and the catapults of the king poured darts and boulders and molten metals on those ruthless beasts ...' - The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales II, The History of Middle-earth Volume II 'Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them.' - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion Tolkien has used the term 'darts' as synonymous with arrows in a few passages; however, I will have to reconsider a blanket statement when considering "bolts". It most likely could be that bolts were shot from an arbalist, rather than crossbows, as both quotes concern sieges or siege weaponry. In fact, the sentence 'Then the engines and the catapults of the king poured darts and boulders...' indicates he was referring directly to siege weaponry. There is no indication that Tolkien ever mentioned hand-held crossbows, even by Orcs, but since Tolkien mentioned in The Hobbit that Orcs are keen on inventing weapons of mass destruction, it is highly likely they would have used siege weapons like the arbalist. As far as the term 'armour', that could indicate any type of protective accoutrements, not necessarily plate. And armorial technology was certainly on the wane, even among dwarves. I recall Thorin admitting that much of their craft in smithying was gone, save for the manufacture of iron rings (or something to that effect). Long gone are the days of Telchar of Nogrod, or Eol, artificer of Galvorn.
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02-11-2009, 06:11 AM | #11 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Yes I checked it when I got home. And the use of dart, shaft and arrow for the same item by Imrahil (who would presumably not use the terms inaccurately) makes a crossbow less likely than even dart alone - maybe it is the pub game that makes me think of a smaller thing than a longbow arrow! Anyway I got it wrong ... sorry.
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02-11-2009, 06:57 AM | #12 |
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I don't think there's one reason for it. Although, I agree that Tolkien's love of Anglo-Saxon times and ancient heroics probably contributed to his choice. But more than that, it may be that he did not see such technological advances as the automatic weapon and so on as 'progress'.
Combat is so much more different with guns than with swords. The latter is much closer and confrontational. Indeed, I have noticed that there are several occasions where people (Turin springs to mind) are described as being so strange that they would be impossible to kill "unless by an evil arrow". Even here we find this slight dislike for ranged warfare. Indeed, Turin's main complaint with the people of Brethil is that they prefer the secret arrow to face-to-face battle. As horrible as battle always is, it strikes me that Tolkien almost promoted a sort of line of thinking that if you are going to kill them, don't do it from afar. Perhaps he thought of the sword and shield as being preferable to the gun and bullet. Even Beleg Strong Bow gave up his bow in favour of the sword. The Dwarves have an interesting slant on this. They use metals such a Mithril (when they can get it) to make chain-mail that is strong enough to stop a spear thrust. Could it be that they saw this as progress enough? For warfare, anyway. I suspect their main developments came in the finding and mining of ores. I know mithril was not so readily available; but there is the hint throughout the books that Dwarvish armour is somehow superior to the stuff men made. Even more so when it comes to the elves. Perhaps it is a case of almost 'enchantment' over advancement?
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04-08-2011, 03:03 PM | #13 | |
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04-08-2011, 12:19 AM | #14 |
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I think his archaism of military is a natural offshot from his love of history. Human society exploded in every possible way in the centuries following the Industrial Revolution, and it quite literally lost its balance and sense of proportion. Although its rather a naieve point to make, pre 1800, human society was much more sustainable simply because there were much fewer people on the planet. I'm sure if Tolkien was alive today he'd be even more horrified
_______________ boys military schools Last edited by aussie; 04-08-2011 at 08:33 PM. |
04-08-2011, 02:24 PM | #16 |
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Welcome, aussie!
My point is very short: the weapons didn't change very much, but their quality did (both ways).
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