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06-28-2003, 05:03 AM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: somewhere between the sacred , silence and sweet .
Posts: 169
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Sam and the Ring
I read all over the chapters where Sam has the Ring and somethin' bothers me still . Maybe I have got it all wrong or missed something because of the book is not in my native language but still I would like to know one thing .
The Ring gave Sam a power to understand the orc language . But when he is at the tower of Cirith Ungol he understands what the orcs say to each other so the strangest part of it is that Sam isn't wearing the Ring . And now don't go telling me that Shagrat and Snaga used the Common Speech because it makes no sence - they were from the same breed . So how did Sam understand them ? Or maybe he did not ? Help me to better understand this mystery of my mind . And pleace forgive me if there is allready a topic like this but I could not find it anywhere .
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06-29-2003, 08:36 PM | #2 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2002
Location: stronghold of the North
Posts: 390
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It's not said definitely that the Ring gave understanding of tongues, only 'perhaps'. But it sharpened some senses for sure.
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06-30-2003, 03:04 AM | #3 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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Yes; as I remember, the language of orcish was merely a debased form of Westron -- that is to say a descendant of Numenorean, enriched with the speech of other Men of Middle-Earth -- enriched with components of the Black Speech. The Black Speech in its pure form was not spoken all over Mordor -- although Sauron's purpose was indeed to spread it over the whole of Middle-Earth once he had conquered it. Many Orcs would probably have mostly spoken Westron anyway.
So the speech of the Orcs would have been more or less intelligible to most listeners-in, such as Sam, even without the enhanced powers of aural perception awarded to him by the Ring. |
06-30-2003, 04:36 PM | #4 |
Haunting Spirit
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If you remember, pippin and merry could both understand orcs
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06-30-2003, 05:58 PM | #5 |
Deathless Sun
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I don't think he understood every word of it, he just understood the general meaning of what they were saying. Since the language of the Orcs was a corrupted form of Westron, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin could understand what they were saying, since they themselves spoke Westron.
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06-30-2003, 06:22 PM | #6 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Quote:
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As for Sam, it may be that the Ring enabled him to understand Gorbag and Shagrat talking in their own tongue (they were both senior Orcs of Mordor and so might well have shared a language), or perhaps he only imagined that it did whereas they were in fact using the Common Speech. The account is, after all, written from Sam's perspective. Later, when he is no longer wearing the Ring, he is able to understand Shagrat speaking to Snaga. But, as has already been said, Shagrat was a Captain and Snaga only a slave, it is unlikely that they shared a common language being from different "castes". Later, when they are travelling through Mordor, Frodo and Sam are able to understand the conversation between a "big fighting-orc" and a tracker: Quote:
It is also worth noting that, in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, Sam is able to understand Shagrat's triumphant address to Gorbag after he has slain him. Perhaps Shagrat wanted others such as Snaga to hear and understand him, so as to instill fear in them. Or perhaps he just carried on using the language in which he had been conversing with Snaga. In any event, in most of the situations where the Hobbits are able to understand the Orcs, it is because they are of different breeds and therefore conversing in the Common Speech. The only real exception is when Sam overhears Shagrat and Gorbag talking. Either they were speaking in their shared language and the Ring allowed Sam to understand, or they were speaking in the Common Speech and Sam only imagined that the Ring allowed him to understand them. Either explanation is possible.
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06-30-2003, 11:20 PM | #7 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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Orcish was a corrupted form of westron, but was probably different between the various breeds enough to cause confusion when speaking it to one another. ORcs are not famed for their intelligence and tolerance anyway. It was probably easier to use the common speech, but I believe that Sam could still have understood them speaking their own form of Orcish -- if only elementarily.
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07-02-2003, 10:37 AM | #8 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: somewhere between the sacred , silence and sweet .
Posts: 169
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Thank you kind people for lightening up my little mind . Now I finally understand the book compleetly . Thank you once more and forgive my dumbnes in these matters . [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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