Good guys of LOTR clueless?

[the phantom]

I start with a quote from Gandalf (FOTR The Shadow of the Past)-

He (Sauron) believed that the One had perished; that the elves had destroyed it."

Say what? We have two possibilities-
1) Gandalf knows what he's talking about
2) Gandalf doesn't know what he's talking about

If 1) is true then Sauron is stupid and confused (I'll explain why in a sec).
If 2) is true then, well, you can see why I believe the good guys didn't have a prayer.

Here's another Gandalf quote (FOTR The Council of Elrond)-

Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it."

So let me get this straight. First, Sauron supposedly thought that the elves destroyed the Ring, and yet Sauron would never think that someone would destroy his Ring. Notice a MASSIVE discrepancy?

And then there's this (ROTK Mount Doom)-

his (Sauron) fear rose...for he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung

Wait a minute. According to the first quote Sauron thought he could get along just fine if his ring was destroyed (since he was alive and well and also thought that the elves destroyed the Ring). But the last quote shows that he was afraid the destruction of the ring would doom him. Notice another HUGE discrepancy?

If Gandalf's first statement was true then Sauron is stupid and confused. He apparently doesn't even know how his own Ring works to the point that he thinks it can be destroyed without taking him down. But then at the end he must not think that anymore because he's scared to death when he realizes that the good guys are trying to destroy the Ring. Also, he thought that the elves destroyed the Ring yet he thinks no one would try to destroy it.

This seems too silly to be possible. And think of this, if Sauron really didn't think that destroying his Ring would destroy him why were the good guys so confident it would work. It's absurd. Option 1) is not acceptable, which means option 2) is true (Gandalf doesn't know what he's talking about).

Not only that, but think of Galadriel. As Tolkien said (letter 246)-

it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

From Tolkien's writings it seems obvious that Galadriel's belief was false. If you want more evidence, look at what Sauron said to Saruman (a more powerful being than Galadriel) when he believed that Saruman had captured the Ring (TTT The Palantir)-

Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once

When Saruman gets the Ring, Sauron treats him the way you'd treat a child threatening you with a plastic knife. It seems Saruman didn't have a chance though he thought he did (and the same goes for Galadriel).

And there's also another claim she made (FOTR The Mirror of Galadriel)-

I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the elves.

Really? Form Morgoth's Ring (myths transformed, VII, ii)-

No one, not even one of the Valar, can read the mind of other 'equal beings' (All rational minds / spirits deriving direct from Eru are ‘equal’- in order and status- though not necessarily ‘coeval’ or of like original powerl): that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading or inspection of another mind than is deduction concerning the contents of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight. Neither is so-called 'thought-transference' a process of mind-reading: this is but the reception, and interpretation by the receiving mind, of the impact of a thought, or thought-pattern, emanating from another mind, which is no more the mind in full or in itself than is the distant sight of a man running the man himself. Minds can exhibit or reveal themselves to other minds by the action of their own wills (though it is doubtful if, even when willing or desiring this, a mind can actually reveal itself wholly to any other mind). It is thus a temptation to minds of greater power to govern or constrain the will of other, and weaker, minds, so as to induce or force them to reveal themselves. But to force such a revelation, or to induce it by any lying or deception, even for supposedly 'good' purposes (including the 'good' of the person so persuaded or dominated), is absolutely forbidden. To do so is a crime, and the 'good' in the purposes of those who commit this crime swiftly becomes corrupted.

So once again, it seems Galadriel makes a false claim.

So if you put my entire post together, I'm saying it appears that the good guys of Lord of the Rings didn't know very much, or that much of what they thought they knew was wrong. So maybe everything else they said was wrong, too, it's just that we don't know it.

I've always thought that the good guys didn't have a chance but wow, I didn't realize they were this clueless. Thank Eru for divine intervention in Middle Earth.

[Kuruharan]

So let me get this straight. First, Sauron supposedly thought that the elves destroyed the Ring, and yet Sauron would never think that someone would destroy his Ring. Notice a MASSIVE discrepancy?

In the case of Gandalf, I think it may be a matter of timing. Initially, Gandalf spoke of the time before Sauron knew that his Ring still existed. Under those circumstances, it is understandable that Sauron would not fear the destruction of his Ring. He thought it had already been done.

The later quotes of Gandalf bear a context of Sauron’s discovery of the continued existence of the Ring. Under these conditions, Sauron might not have thought that anyone would wish to destroy the Ring, but that does not mean that he would not have gained a greater understanding of how things worked.

Remember that at the end of the Return of the King, Sauron is not destroyed; he is simply crippled beyond all hope of recovery.

At the time of the Last Alliance Sauron may have believed that the destruction of the Ring would be the end of him. He fled after his defeat and assumed that the Alliance had destroyed the Ring. Imagine his surprise when he discovers that he retains the strength to create a new shape and get up to his old tricks again. His natural conclusion would probably be that the Ring was not as important to his existence as he’d thought.

Millennia pass. Sauron discovers that his Ring still exists. That puts a whole new face on things. Now he understands why he was able to regrow and do all the naughty things he can do. Perhaps the end of the Ring would still be the end of him after all.

But, no worries, who in their right mind would wish to destroy the Ring?

As for Galadriel, many people have a tendency to say rather inflated things from time to time. This is particularly true if they are needing to continually impress everyone around them. Galadriel may have overstated her knowledge to a)make things easier for poor dimwitted Frodo to understand and b)impress Frodo with her nearly divine stature so that she would have one more dopey admirer to add to already impressive collection.

She might have also understood that Frodo would write a book about his adventures that would one day become quite popular. She would want to portray herself as being as wondrous and powerful as she possibly could.

[the phantom]

it is understandable that Sauron would not fear the destruction of his Ring. He thought it had already been done.

Do you really think it's possible that Sauron didn't understand the way his own Ring worked?

but that does not mean that he would not have gained a greater understanding of how things worked

I just find it hard to believe that Sauron could gain understanding about something he should've already known everything about (or almost everything, certainly more than anyone else).

But I'm willing to play with what I think is sort of silly. So, let's assume that Sauron didn't have a clue about the most basic aspect of his Ring (whether or not it would kill him if it was destroyed). In that case, perhaps Sauron wasn't really afraid when he sensed Frodo in Mt Doom. Perhaps the historians of Middle Earth interpreted the tremor that ran through his empire as fear, but in fact he was overjoyed and excited to finally find his Ring (and so close to home), and was so anxious to get his precious that he stopped focusing on everything else in his empire. After all, so what if his servants were afraid without his will behind them, for within minutes he'd have his Ring on and he'd be victorious.

So there's another way to piece together the quotes I gave (and once again, it would make Gandalf very wrong about Sauron).

He fled after his defeat and assumed that the Alliance had destroyed the Ring

But, no worries, who in their right mind would wish to destroy the Ring?

Those statements don't work as I said in my first post. It's impossible that Sauron would think someone destroyed his Ring and yet never think of the possibility that someone would destroy his Ring. That contradiction is too extreme to explain away. One of the statements that Gandalf made was not true. I would guess the first quote I gave in my first post would be the inaccurate one.

[Maédhros]

Do you really think it's possible that Sauron didn't understand the way his own Ring worked?

You have a very good point. But remember that it is a quote from Gandalf and not Sauron. I do not have my books with me at the moment (not for looking at them right now though), but what I have understood from them is that Sauron thought that his Ring was lost. And he could do just fine that way.

[the phantom]

But remember that it is a quote from Gandalf and not Sauron

Oh, I remember. The fact that Gandalf said it is my entire point. Gandalf didn't know what he was talking about.

but what I have understood from them is that Sauron thought that his Ring was lost

I agree with you, and if we're right then Gandalf was very wrong. That's why I started wondering if we can trust a single thing that Gandalf and the other good guys say about Sauron?

(not saying they're meaning to lie, just that they're extremely misinformed, I would imagine Sauron is very good at the counter-intelligence/misdirection sort of thing and perhaps the good guys were in a worse predicament than we ever thought, I mean, being clueless about your enemy is pretty bad)

[davem]

I'm not sure we can attribute complex thought processes to Sauron, at least not by this late stage in his devolution. He seems to me to be focussed so much on his desires that he doesn't analyse the situation in great detail. I think he was so caught up in achieving dominance, convinced of his inevitable victory & simply not thinking of defeat. He's probably a whole lot less smart than Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel or any of his enemies. I think Galadriel can say with absolute truth that she Knows all his thought, because his thought isn't all that complex. Take Morgoth. His whole desire was to reduce everything to primal chaos, yet where would that have left him?

To my mind Sauron is very powerful, but not very bright, & probably lots of thoughts passed through his 'mind', but none of them would register sufficiently to overcome his basic desire. I think its entirely possible that he didn't know how his Ring worked, or at least had forgotten. His focus always is power, control, domination.

Look at the Nazgul, & the Mouth. They are simply not 'intelligent' creatures. They have become over the millenia focussed into 'devices', with a single purpose, like automata. Sauron simply doesn't have the capacity for complex, detached reasoning, the analytical capability that you're attributing to him . He's certainly powerful, but he's stupid, because he can only conceive desire for control. At the end, when Frodo stood at the Sammath Naur, & suspect that his reaction wasn't 'intellectual' - ie, that he realised his situation & his danger. I suspect he suddenly suffered a kind of unexpected 'spiritual' punch in the guts, & went into a blind panic, like a terrified animal.

[Legolas]

The 'discrepancies' you point out and attribute to characters in the story are obviously points that should be attributed more to the author. As presented in the original post, these assertions are misdirected. In the first thing pointed out, the quotes about the Ring's possible destruction, is that really Gandalf being stupid? I don't think so. More than likely, it's the author who was writing the book as he went. That is, when taken at face value - out of context, as they've been presented. The difference between the two statements can be explained by the passage of time. Gandalf had found out a lot between those scenes. He had been to Orthanc and seen what Sauron had done to Saruman - especially in reguards ; moreover, he now knew that Gollum had escaped (the quote comes from the Council of Elrond after Legolas had given his news of hte escape). Saruman's mention of searching for the Ring changed his perspective on Sauron's hopes of finding it. Gandalf wasn't stupid; there was simply very little to go on in the beginning. Over the course of that first volume is where the story begins fittingly - as the plans of Sauron begin to unravel and Gandalf now has enough to see the full picture.

Really? Form Morgoth's Ring (myths transformed, VII, ii)-

One doesn't even have to read the statement that follows to see the discrepancy in your own assertions - the quote that follows was written after the writing and publishing of Lord of the Rings. Any writings from before your quote cannot be expected to totally line up with the quote itself. They may loosely, but it could be (and may very well be) that Tolkien had changed his perspective on the matter (not necessarily a 180-degree change, but still a change). Such a development in thought is bound to cause some "discrepancies" with earlier writings.

[tar-ancalime]

Do you really think it's possible that Sauron didn't understand the way his own Ring worked?

Yes, absolutely! There had never been a ring like it before--that's what makes it the One Ring--and certainly it had never been destroyed before. Who was to say what would happen when it was cast into the fire? For all Sauron (or anyone else) knew, destroying the Ring could have ushered in a new age of...oh, let's say, Orc cotillions.

[Kuruharan]

I think the Wise would have been incompetent if they had not picked out the best means of disposing of their little problem.

They decided that the best solution was to destroy the Ring (thinking out of the box). They endeavored to get that job done. They did a darn good job of keeping Sauron completely bamboozeled about their true intentions.

That does not sound terribly incompetent to me.

[the phantom]

That does not sound terribly incompetent to me.

I don't think I ever said they were "incompetent".

I'm talking more along the lines of incapable, though when I looked up incompetent in the thesaurus a couple of the synonyms seemed applicable. The synonyms listed under ineffectual seem to work well (eg unsuccessful and inadequate) so perhaps that is a better word to use.

making the good guys losers no matter what

but not that that fact makes them "losers", not in the sense which is mostly attached to that word.

If other people choose to attach a "sense" to the word losers then they can if they want, but I'm not. I meant losers exactly how it is said in the context of my argument, which was that the good guys were on the losing side of a conflict.

[The Saucepan Man]

Ah, what a wonderful thing is hindsight!

As I said earlier on in this thread, Gandalf did the best that he could in light of his circumstances and the information available to him at the time. But he was only human (or, rather, subject to human frailties). So, while he undoubtedly had great wisdom, he was not above making mistakes. He may well have been guilty of an error of judgment in not taking more concerted action to identify the nature of the Ring earlier, but I would not equate this with incomptence or inadequacy. Perhaps he would have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight, but he chose the course of action which seemed the best to him at the time.

And perhaps it was a good thing that he did. What would have happened had he discovered the true identity of the Ring much earlier? Would Bilbo have undertaken the Quest to destory it. Who would he have taken with him? Would he have succeeded to the extent that Frodo did? Possibly, given that Sauron was not as strong. But what of Saruman? Quite possibly he would have been present at the council to decide the fate of the Ring. If he had offered to take custody of it, or at least accompany the Ringbearer on the Quest, would any have opposed him at that time? Even were Gandalf also present on the Quest, would he (as Gandalf the Grey) have been able to protect the Ringbearer from Saruman? Probably not, given that Saruman was able to overpower him in Orthanc.

So perhaps things worked out for the best after all.

In any event, if failure to take an early course of action that would have prevented much suffering equates to incompetence, then Eru was the most incompetent of all. He was able to intervene to oppose Sauron, for example by "arranging" for Bilbo to find the Ring and, of course, by giving Gollum a little "nudge" at Sammath Naur. So why didn't he just intervene by having Sauron drop the Ring in the fire just after he had forged it? Talk about incompetence!

[Maédhros]

What? Could you restate that in a less garbled fashion?

Ok, there is this theory that I have seen in this thread that it seems that they could be more rings than the 20 that I know of. (9 for the humans, 3 elves, 7 dwarves and 1 of Sauron).
I do not seem to recall that there were other rings besides those (at least magic rings made by the Elves in Eregion). Do you or anyone else has any proof to the contrary, that there could be other lesser rings which didn't have gems in them that could have the similar description as Sauron's ring?

As I said earlier on in this thread, Gandalf did the best that he could in light of his circumstances and the information available to him at the time. But he was only human (or, rather, subject to human frailties). So, while he undoubtedly had great wisdom, he was not above making mistakes. He may well have been guilty of an error of judgment in not taking more concerted action to identify the nature of the Ring earlier, but I would not equate this with incomptence or inadequacy. Perhaps he would have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight, but he chose the course of action which seemed the best to him at the time.

hindsight: Perception of the significance and nature of events after they have occurred.

Lets see if hindsight was needed:
1. Gandalf felt uneasy about Bilbo's ring.
2. Gandalf knew that both rings had similar descriptions 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire in the White council discussion.
3. Gandalf while in that council mistrusted Saruman as to not tell him about Bilbo's ring but was satisfied about his conclusions that the ring could not be found.
4. In a world where gut feelings are as important of more important than common sense then was Gandalf not following his feeling odd?
5. If they were only 20 rings, what was the probability that Bilbo's ring was Sauron's? P=1/20, now knowing about the ones of the Ring wraiths and the 3 Elven ones, we have P=1/8, yet in his visit to Dol Guldur, he could at least discount one of those 7 dwarven rings. P=1/7.
With all those facts, do you really think that one needed hindsight at that point? Wow. With that information, it did not warrant an inmediate research about his ring?

In any event, if failure to take an early course of action that would have prevented much suffering equates to incompetence, then Eru was the most incompetent of all. He was able to intervene to oppose Sauron, for example by "arranging" for Bilbo to find the Ring and, of course, by giving Gollum a little "nudge" at Sammath Naur. So why didn't he just intervene by having Sauron drop the Ring in the fire just after he had forged it? Talk about incompetence!

The difference is that while Eru can see the events from an outside perspective (being God) he probably knows that the things that will happen there will be readressed at a later time eg. Arda remade.
While the Istari had an insiders perspective in ME that they were the enemies of Sauron and I believe that if they could accomplish their mission 50 years earlier, it would have saved some suffering in the world.

[The Saucepan Man]

I do not seem to recall that there were other rings besides those (at least magic rings made by the Elves in Eregion). Do you or anyone else has any proof to the contrary, that there could be other lesser rings which didn't have gems in them that could have the similar description as Sauron's ring?

Yes.

Gandalf, from The Shadow of the Past:

"In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."

So, there were many rings made, in addition to the 20 that are referred to as the Rings of Power. And the fact that Bilbo's Ring conferred the power of invisibility (and caused him to lie concerning the circumstances of its discovery) did not mean that it could not be a lesser ring, since lesser rings were still powerful as far as mortals are concerned. So I would say that vastly narrows the odds of Bilbo's Ring being the One Ring from 7/1.

The difference is that while Eru can see the events from an outside perspective (being God) he probably knows that the things that will happen there will be readressed at a later time eg. Arda remade.

Surely that makes him all the more incompetent. He could see that much suffering would take place and yet did not take early action to prevent this, despite clearly having the power to do so. Gandalf, however did not have the luxury of seeing things from the "outside perspective". If he had had that luxury, no doubt he would have acted differently.

[Elu Ancalime]

Gandalf might have been on to something, but i think he jumped the gun. Surely Sauron must have had an idea of howthe Ring affected his power, because he experianced it, obviously...but since he had been defeated and taken a new shape so many times, he might have over seen it. Its like he was doubting his own power, which would give Sauruman the biggest evil ego.() However, with this, two more possibilities:

1) Sauron 's ego surpassed his sense, because of draining all the armies in Mordor for the Black Gate battle, and he set no guard on Orudruin.

2) He didnt think the Ring would be destroyed in Mt Doom anyway. He must have thought the Ring was going to Gondor, so its approaching towards the South was no surprise. However, Ssm used it at Cirith Ungol, which is definatly the senic route to Minas Tirith, and then a line from Return of the King said something like this in the CHapter 'Mt Doom.'

And then he understood the devices of his enemy, and all the plots were made bare to him...something like that.

So from that he must have known he was pretty much a goner. But then, either he knew he was dead because :

A) He thought about the Ring and the possibility of its vulnerability in Mt Doom, and when the Ring was used there he must have understood it was true, so his nagging feeling in the back of his...Eye...was right, so it agrees with 2).

B) He knew it all along, so it agrees with 1).


So Gandalf might have just said it in the quick and dirty way, so as not to generate this kind of disscusion which whould have triggered his ADHD and forgotten what the keck he was doin'.
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