Using Shelob, and choice of cliffhangers

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Now that we're extremely familiar with the movies, does anyone agree that it might have been better to put Shelob into The Two Towers, you know, where she was supposed to be?

What actually happened in the film of The Two Towers was this: Frodo and Sam stumbled through an achingly boring storyline with the pretend Faramir. A major reason Faramir is so bad in the film is because he had to appear as a threat to Frodo. And so they walk about a bit, go to Osgiliath, and end on the most disappointing cliffhanger possible: Gollum speaking to himself about how this mystery female could get the Ring for him.

*groan*

Here's what could have happened: the audience leaves the cinema seeing Frodo captured by Orcs and Sam all alone in Mordor trying to rescue him. Now that's an awesome cliffhanger!

Now I know that some of you will be replying "O, but we can't have anything else happen after Helm's Deep!" Well, why not? Don't be fooled by what happened in the film. Helm's Deep was one chapter of the book, one chapter. It was Jackson's choice to make the battle the be all and end all of The Two Towers. Anyway, it's not like nothing happened after the big climax anyway. We had that whole 'Frodo offers the Ring to the Ringwraith' deal, Sam's speech, Faramir's inexplicable change-of-heart and a little tale about Samwise the Brave! O, and to mention Gollum's ramblings. Is this dampening effect really so preferable to upping the tempo again and revelling in some Giant Spider Action? Methinks not.

"O, but then The Return of the King would be weaker!"

Well, indeed we wouldn't have any Shelob action, and we certainly wouldn't have a ridiculous lembas saga, but I think it is clear enough that Tolkien gave enough material to work with. The Tower of Cirith Ungol could have been a movie in itself, it just depends on how the director chooses to present it. We didn't see the Silent Watchers in action. Cirith Ungol was rushed horribly. And then we didn't even get to see Frodo and Sam with the Orcs in Mordor. This scene in the book was gripping and terrifying. In the extended edition DVD, this scene was pretty uninteresting and not scary at all.

So there you have it; I propose that we send Shelob back to The Two Towers!

[Folwren]

Eomer, you are awesome!!

I always thought the same thing...Shelob should defintely have gone in the TT. Before the movie came out, I always pictured the end to myself. It would have been a perfect cliff hanger.

You have this huge monster come out and apparently kill Frodo and then the orcs get him and Sam learns that he's alive, and the audience then does, too. At the end of the book, not only does the enemy have Frodo, but Sam is lying senseless right in front of an orc gate!!! Can you imagine how awesome they could have made that? With Howard Shores music...little Sam lying on the ground in front of a huge iron gate...it could have been awesome, sad, and extremely cliffhanging.

Anyhow, I don't have any more time to dramatize what I wish could have happened. Excellent point, Eomer, and I agree entirely with you.

[drigel]

Yea great point Eomer!
I would end it before the tower scene. People would be walking out quizzing their Tolkien expert friends: "Frodo dies? How can Frodo die???"

[Gurthang]

Yes, I agree entirely. The book ending had me so worked up that I couldn't wait to run to the library and get RotK. The movie left me disappointed; I had so been looking forward to seeing Shelob and then had to wait another year! And personally, I thought TTT was somewhat dragged out. It seemed much longer than it was. I could definitely have gone for more action.

And that's a good point about 'nothing left for RotK'. There would be plenty. When watching RotK in theater, I noticed a few points that seemed strangely broken, and I expected extended edition scenes in those breaks. The first one I remember was when the camera pans up and shows a circle of trees (the crossroads) in the distance, then doesn't say/show anything more about them. Until the EE that is. The second moment I noticed was when Sam was approaching the gate at Cirith Ungol. It zoomed in on the watchers and then Sam simply passes through. Again I was expecting a scene in the extended release, but there was no scene. Personally, I think it was a bad bit of directing, especially showing those statues up close and then ignoring them.

[mormegil]

I wonder, though, if that ending in TTT would be a bit much for a theatrical version. It seems to great a cliffhanger to end upon. The medium is different between movie and book (obviously) so Tolkien was able to effectively leave us with Shelob "killing" Frodo in the book, however, I don't see that it could be effectively done in the movie.

I think it would be a suspense overload and many movie goers wouldn't enjoy such an "ending", especially that large group who hadn't read the books.

I've stated elsewhere that I wish RotK had more of Sam and Frodo's journey through Mordor, the orc march specifically, but I don't agree that leaving Frodo "dead" would be a good way to end TTT.

Perhaps if we wanted to include Shelob in TTT then we could have gotten through Cirith Ungol but then the RotK would only be left with Mordor and Mt. Doom for Frodo and Sam.

I think what PJ was hoping to capture with Shelob at the start of RotK was instant excitement and energy. Show how perilous Mordor is. He didn't want to get Sam and Frodo to Mordor in the TTT and then resume in RotK. It was segmented into three pieces.

1. Frodo and Sam with the Fellowship
2. Frodo and Sam with Gollum
3. Frodo and Sam alone and in Mordor

[Folwren]

Originally posted by mormegil
I've stated elsewhere that I wish RotK had more of Sam and Frodo's journey through Mordor, the orc march specifically, but I don't agree that leaving Frodo "dead" would be a good way to end TTT.

No, no, no. You don't leave him "Dead", so to speak, just helpless. The audience will end up knowing he's alive by the end. He could effectively end it with the same sentence (or, as it would be in a movie, impression) as Tolkien did.

Frodo was alive but taken by the enemy.

Anyway, as it was, they had so much to put into the RotK when it came about that they had to cut short Sam's struggle and sorrow at his death. That is one of the most dramatic and sad parts in the entire trilogy, and to cut it short to the point where even I hardly cried at the theater when I saw it is really pathetic. They had done it like it was supposed to have been done, in the TT, then they would have had time.

I think what PJ was hoping to capture with Shelob at the start of RotK was instant excitement and energy. Show how perilous Mordor is.

Shelob wasn't even part of Mordor. And next to that, she's not even at the beginning of the movie. At the beginning of their part in the movie, Frodo turns Sam off and sends him home like a dog.

Besides, the danger of Mordor wasn't really in getting caught by orcs, but dying of thirst and hunger and being caught by the eye...they did a good job with that, but I don't think that he needed Shelob to help with protraying the danger of Mordor.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

"O, but then The Return of the King would be weaker!"

ROTK couldn't really be weak unless PJ really, really tired at it. With the Siege of Minas Tirith, the Ride of the Rohirrim, and the ulitmate destruction of the Ring I don't think ROTK would have been weaker if Shelob was in TTT.

When I went to see TTT opening night with my parents the entire way there all I could talk about was seeing Oliphants and the Shelob cliffhanger. Well the Olophants were there, but no Shelob. I was crushed. It would have been one of the greatest cliffhangers in cinema history if PJ had added it.