Just a little question..... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Cherie Centaur · 12-08-2002, 09:34 AM

I'm not sure this belongs in Novices but here goes......

I have started writing FanFic and so that I don't get anything wrong I ask this:

Can any elf choose Mortality, or just the offspring of Elrond? Also does beings mortal mean they age?

Please use your devine knowledge to answer my question, for I am at amiss.

dernhelm · 12-08-2002, 10:01 AM

Just as Elrond was allowed to choose his race, other elves could choose to be mortals. For example, Arwen chose to become mortal by not following her father, Elrond, over the sea into the West. She died of grief after Aragorn died. Or you could look at it another way. Since the race of elves was subject to death by grief, an elf, who fell in love with a mortal, was basically dooming himself. Because when his mortal love died, as the race of men did, the elf would die also from his sadness and broken heart. As for your second question, I'm not absolutely sure, but my guess would be yes elves who chose to be mortal would also be subject to aging. Hope this helps. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Manwe Sulimo · 12-08-2002, 11:07 AM

I don't think that Arwen aged, she just went to Lórien and died when Aragorn passed away. Not all elves can choose mortality; the first to have that choice was Lúthien, who had the choice because the Valar gave it to her; the same as Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros. Methinks that an elf can only chose mortality if they are in love with a mortal, or a half-elf.

Cherie Centaur · 12-08-2002, 12:13 PM

Then do all elves who love one of the race of men have to choose mortality? You see my main character falls in love with a human and she has to decide what to do. I want to follow the "rules" Tolkien put down so I need the truth. Thanks for all your help.

Cherie

Legolas · 12-08-2002, 02:19 PM

No.

Elrond and his immediate family (brother, mom/dad, and children) were given the choice because they were half-elven - not elven. They got to choose between the fate of men or the fate of the elven because they had both man and elf in their blood.

The children of Elrond got the choice again because Elrond married an elf (Celebrian).

Both Elrond's parents both had human and elven blood - they united the two instances of man-elf unification (Tuor/Idril - Elrond's mom, Luthien-Beren - Elrond's dad).

Arwen didn't give up her immortality - she never had it. She was *not* an elf. She was a half-elf. She was given the choice between immortality and mortality because of her parents - before she fell in love with Aragorn. She would've had to make the decision (whether Aragorn had ever even existed). She had to make the decision when Elrond left Middle-earth (or shortly thereafter).

These were the only instances of a man and an elf.

Elves could not simply choose to give up their immortality - it was their fate and they could not change it.

Only Eru could give/take mortality.

dernhelm is totally wrong. Elrond was not an elf - he was a half-elf who made the choice of immortality. Full elves (which means ALL other elves) could not make that choice. I'm not sure I can stress this enough - in the entire history of Middle-earth, ONLY Elrond, his dad, mom, brother, and three children could choose.

Manwe is wrong too - Luthien did not make the choice, nor did the Valar give her the choice. Mortality is the gift of Eru - only he can give it or take it away.

Quote:

Methinks that an elf can only chose mortality if they are in love with a mortal, or a half-elf.

This is wrong - Luthien was only allowed to be mortal because Eru gave her that gift. It was given because of her great great deeds.

If you're still confused or need quotes from Tolkien, I wrote an article about it. Follow this link:

http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_halfelves.asp

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Cherie Centaur · 12-08-2002, 03:59 PM

Legalos, I'm confused. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Does that mean that an elf cannot stay behind and not go to the Grey Havens? What about sucide?

Cúdae · 12-08-2002, 04:14 PM

Of course an elf could stay behind and not go to the Grey Havens. Although, this seems unlikely since the Elves were fading from Middle-Earth.
Suicide is also an option for an elf, although it wouldn't get them much better. After an elf dies, his spirit (or fea) will go to the Halls of Mandos. From there, he will either be re-embodied in Valinor or he can sit around and think for eternity. If he killed himself, I don't think re-embodiment would be exactly what he wanted. Thinking doesn't sound much better.

But what Legalos said is true: An elf must be half-elven or have the grace of Eru (Luthien) to have the choice of mortality. In Luthien's case, the choice was hers in a way but the deed was Eru's. In Arwen's, the choice was hers alone, a "gift" that was the result of Elrond being half-elven.

Cherie Centaur · 12-08-2002, 04:17 PM

What deed did Luthien do?

Diamond18 · 12-08-2002, 06:06 PM

She merely defeated Sauron and Morgoth.

Túroch · 12-09-2002, 02:36 AM

Well she didn't defeat them persay, but she realy showed them up. She and Beren One-Hand succeded is stealing a silmaril off of the Morgoths iron crown. Beren unfortunatley was killed shortly after. There souls met in mandos however, and she given the choice. I agree with Legolas, only the direct family of Earendill and his sons had the choice of immortality, since they weren't truly elven. Elrond was actually, 9/16 Elven, 6/16 Human, and 1/16 Maia. I actually calculated it, i'm such a geek.

As to elves leaving middle-earth; they are leaving because all that they know and love is fading away. It was only through the three elven rings that some of middle-earth's old beauty was preserved and after the One ring was destroyed there was really nothign left for them. This is one of the reasons why the gift of death to men is actually a gift and not a curse as some of the Numenorian's belived. The elves have grown weary and sorrowfull because their long lives give them more grief then joy. All that they oncee knew and oved is passing or has already passed away. At least in the west they can find some of what they have lost. So to sum up an elf could stay behind if he wanted, but he wouldn't enjoy it very much.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Túroch ]

Cherie Centaur · 12-09-2002, 07:53 AM

Thanks,Túroch, you really helped me a lot. Also, all you other people as well. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Cherie Centaur · 12-09-2002, 05:10 PM

I've been thinkin', and I was wonderin' if killing Shelob/Ungoliant would be a really good deed, good enough to earn mortality?

Also, my chracter is full elf so she can't choose right? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Legolas · 12-09-2002, 11:45 PM

Shelob wouldn't be that big of a deal, and Ungoliant already ate herself.

Luthien's instance was a very big deal - the Silmarils held the light of Valinor.

And, right, she can't choose.

Túroch · 12-11-2002, 01:59 AM

Yah i'm afraid just a normal full elf couldn't choose her fate. The only other people who left to the west were ring bearers as far as I know. The big reason why Earendil got to choose was because even though he was mortal he had set foot on Valinor which is supposed to be strictly immortals only. The fact that he was half elf and half human didn't help matters. So they just tossed him the decision. So unless she was involved in something really big she can't choose. Maybe if she were to do comething that is restricted only to mortals. But I can't think of anything.

P.S. I know centaurs would be cool (they've always been my favorite creature), but they just don't fit with Tolkiens Norse-esk mythos.

Voronwe · 12-11-2002, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Manwe is wrong too - Luthien did not make the choice, nor did the Valar give her the choice. Mortality is the gift of Eru - only he can give it or take it away.

Not so. It states pretty clearly in the Silmarillion that Luthien was given the choice between mortality and immortality by Manwe (who had consulted Eru on the matter). Needless to say, she chose mortality.

Quote:

These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.

It is true that it was effectively Eru and not the Valar that were offering the choice, since the Valar did not have the authority to change the fates of Elves or Men. However, there was a clear choice here. Mortality was not forced upon Luthien, except in the sense that her love for Beren almost made her choice a foregone conclusion.

Cherie Centaur · 12-11-2002, 05:36 PM

So, my two characters can't die together? Like the mortal dying and elf commiting suicide? I'm sorry if I'm making you frustrated with my questions. It's just that I've seen soo many stories where the author doesn't even try to get it right, which makes me scream. So, I want to get it right. I really appreciate all the help your giving me.

Cherie

P.S.- I think centaurs would be a very good addition to Middle-earth. Think of it, centaurs in Rohan galloping and fighting with the Roharrim.... Uh, maybe they shouldn't. It would be too messy. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Legolas · 12-11-2002, 11:04 PM

I meant that Luthien didn't choose mortality by loving Beren, and that she had no original say in the matter until the choice was explicitly offered to her.

Legolas · 12-11-2002, 11:06 PM

Cherie, elves can be slain, and subsequently, they would be able to commit suicide.

Cherie Centaur · 12-12-2002, 05:06 PM

Thank you, Legalos. It's all clear now. But, didn't someone at somepoint (also I think I remember this, I did read some of the Silmarillion [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) that their spirits wouldn't join in Mandos?

I know this is off the subject, but do the Valar,especially Varda & Manwe (sorry, I can't do the two little dots above the "e"), have any input in Eru's decesions? That has to do with my last string I will tie to make my story work.

I thank you all for your past and future responses, It proves my conversations are atleast somewhat intresting.

Love To All,
Cherie
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Cherie Centaur ]

12-08-2002, 09:34 AM	#1
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	Just a little question..... I'm not sure this belongs in Novices but here goes...... I have started writing FanFic and so that I don't get anything wrong I ask this: Can any elf choose Mortality, or just the offspring of Elrond? Also does beings mortal mean they age? Please use your devine knowledge to answer my question, for I am at amiss. __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

12-08-2002, 10:01 AM	#2
dernhelm Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 30	Just as Elrond was allowed to choose his race, other elves could choose to be mortals. For example, Arwen chose to become mortal by not following her father, Elrond, over the sea into the West. She died of grief after Aragorn died. Or you could look at it another way. Since the race of elves was subject to death by grief, an elf, who fell in love with a mortal, was basically dooming himself. Because when his mortal love died, as the race of men did, the elf would die also from his sadness and broken heart. As for your second question, I'm not absolutely sure, but my guess would be yes elves who chose to be mortal would also be subject to aging. Hope this helps. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Now Lords and Ladies blithe and bold, To bless you here now am I bound: I thank you all a thousand-fold, And pray God save you whole and sound. ~ Sir Gawain's Leave-Taking ~

12-08-2002, 11:07 AM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	I don't think that Arwen aged, she just went to Lórien and died when Aragorn passed away. Not all elves can choose mortality; the first to have that choice was Lúthien, who had the choice because the Valar gave it to her; the same as Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros. Methinks that an elf can only chose mortality if they are in love with a mortal, or a half-elf. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-08-2002, 12:13 PM	#4
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	Then do all elves who love one of the race of men have to choose mortality? You see my main character falls in love with a human and she has to decide what to do. I want to follow the "rules" Tolkien put down so I need the truth. Thanks for all your help. Cherie __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

12-08-2002, 03:59 PM	#6
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	Legalos, I'm confused. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Does that mean that an elf cannot stay behind and not go to the Grey Havens? What about sucide? __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

12-08-2002, 04:14 PM	#7
Cúdae Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 160	Of course an elf could stay behind and not go to the Grey Havens. Although, this seems unlikely since the Elves were fading from Middle-Earth. Suicide is also an option for an elf, although it wouldn't get them much better. After an elf dies, his spirit (or fea) will go to the Halls of Mandos. From there, he will either be re-embodied in Valinor or he can sit around and think for eternity. If he killed himself, I don't think re-embodiment would be exactly what he wanted. Thinking doesn't sound much better. But what Legalos said is true: An elf must be half-elven or have the grace of Eru (Luthien) to have the choice of mortality. In Luthien's case, the choice was hers in a way but the deed was Eru's. In Arwen's, the choice was hers alone, a "gift" that was the result of Elrond being half-elven. __________________ "And if you listen very hard/ The tune will come to you at last/ When all are one and one is all/ To be a rock and not to roll." --Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven"

12-08-2002, 04:17 PM	#8
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	What deed did Luthien do? __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

12-08-2002, 06:06 PM	#9
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	She merely defeated Sauron and Morgoth. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

12-09-2002, 02:36 AM	#10
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Well she didn't defeat them persay, but she realy showed them up. She and Beren One-Hand succeded is stealing a silmaril off of the Morgoths iron crown. Beren unfortunatley was killed shortly after. There souls met in mandos however, and she given the choice. I agree with Legolas, only the direct family of Earendill and his sons had the choice of immortality, since they weren't truly elven. Elrond was actually, 9/16 Elven, 6/16 Human, and 1/16 Maia. I actually calculated it, i'm such a geek. As to elves leaving middle-earth; they are leaving because all that they know and love is fading away. It was only through the three elven rings that some of middle-earth's old beauty was preserved and after the One ring was destroyed there was really nothign left for them. This is one of the reasons why the gift of death to men is actually a gift and not a curse as some of the Numenorian's belived. The elves have grown weary and sorrowfull because their long lives give them more grief then joy. All that they oncee knew and oved is passing or has already passed away. At least in the west they can find some of what they have lost. So to sum up an elf could stay behind if he wanted, but he wouldn't enjoy it very much. [ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Túroch ] __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

12-09-2002, 07:53 AM	#11
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	Thanks,Túroch, you really helped me a lot. Also, all you other people as well. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

12-09-2002, 05:10 PM	#12
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	I've been thinkin', and I was wonderin' if killing Shelob/Ungoliant would be a really good deed, good enough to earn mortality? Also, my chracter is full elf so she can't choose right? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

12-09-2002, 11:45 PM	#13
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Shelob wouldn't be that big of a deal, and Ungoliant already ate herself. Luthien's instance was a very big deal - the Silmarils held the light of Valinor. And, right, she can't choose. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-11-2002, 01:59 AM	#14
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Yah i'm afraid just a normal full elf couldn't choose her fate. The only other people who left to the west were ring bearers as far as I know. The big reason why Earendil got to choose was because even though he was mortal he had set foot on Valinor which is supposed to be strictly immortals only. The fact that he was half elf and half human didn't help matters. So they just tossed him the decision. So unless she was involved in something really big she can't choose. Maybe if she were to do comething that is restricted only to mortals. But I can't think of anything. P.S. I know centaurs would be cool (they've always been my favorite creature), but they just don't fit with Tolkiens Norse-esk mythos. __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

12-11-2002, 05:36 PM	#16
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	So, my two characters can't die together? Like the mortal dying and elf commiting suicide? I'm sorry if I'm making you frustrated with my questions. It's just that I've seen soo many stories where the author doesn't even try to get it right, which makes me scream. So, I want to get it right. I really appreciate all the help your giving me. Cherie P.S.- I think centaurs would be a very good addition to Middle-earth. Think of it, centaurs in Rohan galloping and fighting with the Roharrim.... Uh, maybe they shouldn't. It would be too messy. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

12-11-2002, 11:04 PM	#17
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I meant that Luthien didn't choose mortality by loving Beren, and that she had no original say in the matter until the choice was explicitly offered to her. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-11-2002, 11:06 PM	#18
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Cherie, elves can be slain, and subsequently, they would be able to commit suicide. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-12-2002, 05:06 PM	#19
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	Thank you, Legalos. It's all clear now. But, didn't someone at somepoint (also I think I remember this, I did read some of the Silmarillion [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) that their spirits wouldn't join in Mandos? I know this is off the subject, but do the Valar,especially Varda & Manwe (sorry, I can't do the two little dots above the "e"), have any input in Eru's decesions? That has to do with my last string I will tie to make my story work. I thank you all for your past and future responses, It proves my conversations are atleast somewhat intresting. Love To All, Cherie [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Cherie Centaur ] __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.