A few questions about Middle Earth (knights, titles and names) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

05-26-2004, 08:58 AM

Good day to you all. I am new to this message board, and have a few questions I hope to have answered.

1. Is being a "Knight of Gondor" a very prestigious title, or are all soldiers of Gondor referred to as knights? Also, if it is a prestigious title, are there knighting ceremonies for those entering knighthood?

2. Are all the titles of nobility we use in our world also used in Middle Earth? I've heard of kings, princes and earls, but are there dukes, counts, barons, or even sirs? Do you earn the title "sir" when becoming a Knight of Gondor?

3. Would the character names "Albrecht" or "Adhemar" fit into Middle Earth? Could they be names of Rohirrim or Gondoran (sp?) characters?

That would be all. Thank you. :-)

Elianna · 05-26-2004, 01:14 PM

"Knight of Gondor" may just be a term coined for the movies, don't hold me to that though, I'm not sure. There are certainly Guards of the Citadel, which is a pristegous (sp?) rank of solider, and probably has some pomp to the ceremony of entry.

As for lords: just for clearification, for all those at this topic, the order of nobles is: king, prince, duke, marquess, earl (count is equivalent), viscount (like vice-count), baron, baronet, and knight. Baronets and knights are both called "Sir". I'm sure the Kings and Stewards needed help governing all of Gondor's provinces. We're talking about roughly eight states across 700 miles of mostly wild country. Gondor probably had all of these various nobles.

And about the names: If they're Rohirric, they would mean something in Old English. The best I can get for Albrecht is "sudden fire" and that's "bracen" not "brecht". I don't think "cht" ever occurs in Old English. Adhemar, best I can get it, would mean "oath about honor". But I doubt we have many scholars of Old English here at the 'Downs, so they'd be okay Rohan names I guess. If they're Gondor names, they would most likely mean something in Sindarin. Adhemar could be some really messed up version of Edhel-mar (elf-home), but I can't figure anything for Albrecht. If you make them Gondorian names, there's always the loop hole that they're in some language spoken in Gondor before the Numenoreans came (Erech is an example of these words).

05-26-2004, 01:33 PM

Thanks for your help and your keen insight, Elianna. I appreciate it. :-)

If you are using any resources, would you mind revealing them? If there's a website with translations and the meaning of the names of Middle Earth, it would be of great help to me. :-)

Elianna · 05-26-2004, 01:41 PM

I used "The Langauges of Tolkien's Middle-earth" by Ruth S. Noel for the Elvish, and this for the Old English. Don't know if that link will work.....

Haha! It does!

05-26-2004, 02:07 PM

Thanks again, that will be of great help to me in the future. :-)

I have another question if you don't mind. "Izeleth" has always been my elven name in AD&D, but would it be viable in Middle-Earth at all?

Also, do you perhaps know of a website dealing with elven names?

Kransha · 05-26-2004, 02:26 PM

Welcome, Albrecht. This site, were we all go in death, has a respectable generator of Elven, Halfling, Orc, Adunaic, and Dwarven names for your use.

Actually, Elianna, I believe that very few of those titles were used. The race with the most titles are the Hobbits themselves (Warden of the Undertowers, Thane of the Shire, Shirriff of Bywater, Master of Buckland, etc). The only 'knights' per se, in Middle-Earth, were the Knights of Dol Amroth, those who rescued Faramir at Pelennor (personal movie gripe). Dukes and Counts are unrecorded in Tolkein. I think the only titles are King, Steward, and Lord. Gondor has various fiefs (Lebennin, Lossarnach) but they are not really ruled by noble titled folk, if I remember correctly. Also, all of those titles are specific. There are no baronies, counties, earldoms, duchies, or other in Gondor, only 'dem fiefs.

05-26-2004, 02:47 PM

Thank you for that update, Kransha. :-)

The name generator at this site works fine, but I'd spend an awful lot of time trying to find a name to my liking when it only generates one at a time. I was hoping someone would know of a generator generating several random elven names at once?

I also have another question regarding elven names. Don't they have any kind of surnames at all? I haven't noticed, but do they introduce themselves as "xxxxxx, son/daughter of xxxx" like the men and dwarves do?

Would the name "Izeléth" work for an elf of Middle-Earth, and would you consider it to be a male, female or andrygonous (ehm I know that was *not* spelled correctly) name?

Kransha · 05-26-2004, 03:12 PM

I suggest you attempt to locate a translator of Sindarin (not The Grey Company, though. Their Elvish is fake). Then, just type in words you want your name to mean. Hobbits are the only race with real surnames, though some elves have the equivalent of that: Arwen Undomiel, Elrond Peredhil (sp.?). For dwarves, their names are in Khuzdul, which no man or elf knows, so the names given them are not their real names: Thorin Oakenshield. The 'son of' thing is used commonly, just as an additional, I suppose. Correct me if I'm wrong here, people, I'm not entirely sure. Some Rohirrim had last names: Eomer Eadig for example, but I know of no others. Same with the Gondorians, Orcs, etc...I'm shooting in the dark on this.

Elianna · 05-26-2004, 05:41 PM

I've always thought that names like Arwen Undomiel and Elrond Peredhil were just two names, not a real surname. Same with Éomer Eadig and Fréaláf Hildeson. Otherwise wouldn't she be Arwen Peredhil? The Men of Bree have last names too. And Aragorn took a "family name" when he took the crown: Telcontar (Strider in Quenya).

Izeléth looks more like Adûndiac (the langauge of Numenore) than Elvish. Z's are very rare in Elvish, but I think pretty common in Adûniac. If it were Elvish, I'd say it's a girl name because of the 'eth', I think that's a feminine ending. I could quite easily be wrong on that.

So if there are only fiefs in Gondor, then there are a lot of 'vassals' for varying noblity.

Legolas · 05-27-2004, 08:11 AM

The surnames aren't really surnames...they aren't like the last names we have now. The only example of surnames as they are now is the hobbits. Undomiel and Peredhil are not surnames...simply titles or even nicknames given. Arwen is the 'Evenstar' of her people, and Elrond is half-elven...they're pretty self-explanatory.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 05-27-2004, 01:37 PM

Quote:

I'd say it's a girl name because of the 'eth', I think that's a feminine ending.

At least in the name Elbereth it would seem to be a feminine suffix.
The only names (I think...) in M-E beginning with "i" and including "z" are Inzilbêth, Inziladûn and Imrazôr the Númenórean and they are all Adûnaic names.
So Izelèth would sound fine if you changed the prefix "Iz-". I'm not sure, how common an "è" would have been in the last syllable of an elvish name but with another prefix that name could mean star-lady or star-maiden or something.

About the titles...I'd add marshal on the list (for example Èomer being one of those) and lieutenant if that counts.

05-27-2004, 02:43 PM

Thanks again for the feedback, it's great to have such learned men and women offer their expertise.

So they occasionally use two first names like us, but no last names. I have been trying to find a Rohirric name I'm comfortable with for hours now, and finally I have come up with a couple ones I truly like. I've used two first names... it just seems so short with just the one and no surname. I have done something I'm not proud of though... I've used a name from an actual character as the last part of all my names. It just looked so good I couldn't help myself.

I'm hoping it will work since its the last part of the name and not the first, but I'll let you guys be the judge of that.

"Alchred Éothain"

"Aethelric Éothain"

(Éothain being a close friend of Éomer unless I'm mistaken)

What say the jury?

Elianna · 05-27-2004, 06:38 PM

I like Aethelric Éothain best. Éothain was a member of Éomer's éored, if memory serves, so they were close (whether they liked that fact or not

)

Hmmm...let's see how many more times I can type 'é'.........

Boromir88 · 05-28-2004, 04:35 AM

Eliana,
The guards of the king or steward were called guards of the citadel but were also known as knights of the city. You don't have to ride a horse to be a knight. Then you have Imrahil's knights of dol amroth who actually rode horses, as they rode out with gandalf to save Faramir's retreating troops. Then you have Merry who was taken in, by Eomer, as a knight of rohan. If you ask me, the term knight is used by Tolkien but doesn't seem the "proper" or maybe "most commone term." Yes Eothain was of Eomer's eored.

05-28-2004, 05:37 AM

I have decided to go with "Aethelwulf Éothain". Now that i have my name ready, I can finally begin writing his biography. Somehow I just need to know the name to know what he will be like... know the feel of it. :-)

I have a couple of questions about the Eorlingas now if you don't mind.

- Do most of the people of Rohan know how to read and write, or only the "wisest" of them?

- How much does the average man of Rohan know about the lore of Middle-Earth? Does he know about the Valar? The three elven rings? The Nazgul? The Balrog? The Shire even?

That's all, thanks.

Elianna · 05-28-2004, 07:36 AM

Stop fussing at me about knights!! I get it!

I think the Rohirric people has mostly a oral tradtion of learning. They did have a writting system, but probably only those in Edoras and in the army really know a lot of it. Could be wrong.

I think that with Rohan, as in most countries of Middle-earth, they know of other places, some of other places' histories, but were mainly concerned with their own. The Rohirrim did know about Oromë at least, who gave them horses, and mostly likely knew of Manwë and Varda, but I'm uncertain about the other Valar. They definately would NOT know about the Three, not even all the Elves knew of them; they were hidden. They probably knew as much about the Nazgûl as any average Gondorian. And wouldn't know about the Balrog, not even Gandalf really knew if Durin's Bane would trouble them. They knew of the "hole-builders" who lived near them before they came to Rohan, but probably thought there were none left, before meeting Merry and Pippin.

***Sharkû*** · 05-29-2004, 08:29 PM

Old German names like Albrecht would fit well in a projected, that is, reasonable, but not strictly canonical context.
The Rohirrim have OE names because they needed to seem archaic compared to Westron/English. Their ancestors in the north had Gothic names; the Beornings have OE names as well. If we were to give people somewhere around Rhovanion their own language or at least dialect of Westron, Old or Middle High German could be a good guess.

06-03-2004, 03:01 PM

All your assistance has been highly appreciated. :-)

I need to get the new elven name I'd like to use accepted now, I'd like for it to be appropriate.

"Acherndîr Cristmaethor"

It should mean Vengeful Swordwarrior in Sindarin, but I added the "dîr" to Achern to make it look better, and "dîr" means mature/fully grown.

05-26-2004, 08:58 AM	#1
Albrecht Guest Posts: n/a	A few questions about Middle Earth (knights, titles and names) Good day to you all. I am new to this message board, and have a few questions I hope to have answered. 1. Is being a "Knight of Gondor" a very prestigious title, or are all soldiers of Gondor referred to as knights? Also, if it is a prestigious title, are there knighting ceremonies for those entering knighthood? 2. Are all the titles of nobility we use in our world also used in Middle Earth? I've heard of kings, princes and earls, but are there dukes, counts, barons, or even sirs? Do you earn the title "sir" when becoming a Knight of Gondor? 3. Would the character names "Albrecht" or "Adhemar" fit into Middle Earth? Could they be names of Rohirrim or Gondoran (sp?) characters? That would be all. Thank you. :-)

05-26-2004, 01:14 PM	#2
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	"Knight of Gondor" may just be a term coined for the movies, don't hold me to that though, I'm not sure. There are certainly Guards of the Citadel, which is a pristegous (sp?) rank of solider, and probably has some pomp to the ceremony of entry. As for lords: just for clearification, for all those at this topic, the order of nobles is: king, prince, duke, marquess, earl (count is equivalent), viscount (like vice-count), baron, baronet, and knight. Baronets and knights are both called "Sir". I'm sure the Kings and Stewards needed help governing all of Gondor's provinces. We're talking about roughly eight states across 700 miles of mostly wild country. Gondor probably had all of these various nobles. And about the names: If they're Rohirric, they would mean something in Old English. The best I can get for Albrecht is "sudden fire" and that's "bracen" not "brecht". I don't think "cht" ever occurs in Old English. Adhemar, best I can get it, would mean "oath about honor". But I doubt we have many scholars of Old English here at the 'Downs, so they'd be okay Rohan names I guess. If they're Gondor names, they would most likely mean something in Sindarin. Adhemar could be some really messed up version of Edhel-mar (elf-home), but I can't figure anything for Albrecht. If you make them Gondorian names, there's always the loop hole that they're in some language spoken in Gondor before the Numenoreans came (Erech is an example of these words). __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. Last edited by Elianna; 05-26-2004 at 01:23 PM.

05-26-2004, 01:41 PM	#4
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	I used "The Langauges of Tolkien's Middle-earth" by Ruth S. Noel for the Elvish, and this for the Old English. Don't know if that link will work..... Haha! It does! __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

05-26-2004, 02:26 PM	#6
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Welcome, Albrecht. This site, were we all go in death, has a respectable generator of Elven, Halfling, Orc, Adunaic, and Dwarven names for your use. Actually, Elianna, I believe that very few of those titles were used. The race with the most titles are the Hobbits themselves (Warden of the Undertowers, Thane of the Shire, Shirriff of Bywater, Master of Buckland, etc). The only 'knights' per se, in Middle-Earth, were the Knights of Dol Amroth, those who rescued Faramir at Pelennor (personal movie gripe). Dukes and Counts are unrecorded in Tolkein. I think the only titles are King, Steward, and Lord. Gondor has various fiefs (Lebennin, Lossarnach) but they are not really ruled by noble titled folk, if I remember correctly. Also, all of those titles are specific. There are no baronies, counties, earldoms, duchies, or other in Gondor, only 'dem fiefs. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

05-26-2004, 03:12 PM	#8
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	I suggest you attempt to locate a translator of Sindarin (not The Grey Company, though. Their Elvish is fake). Then, just type in words you want your name to mean. Hobbits are the only race with real surnames, though some elves have the equivalent of that: Arwen Undomiel, Elrond Peredhil (sp.?). For dwarves, their names are in Khuzdul, which no man or elf knows, so the names given them are not their real names: Thorin Oakenshield. The 'son of' thing is used commonly, just as an additional, I suppose. Correct me if I'm wrong here, people, I'm not entirely sure. Some Rohirrim had last names: Eomer Eadig for example, but I know of no others. Same with the Gondorians, Orcs, etc...I'm shooting in the dark on this. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

05-26-2004, 01:33 PM	#3
Albrecht Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks for your help and your keen insight, Elianna. I appreciate it. :-) If you are using any resources, would you mind revealing them? If there's a website with translations and the meaning of the names of Middle Earth, it would be of great help to me. :-)

05-26-2004, 02:07 PM	#5
Albrecht Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks again, that will be of great help to me in the future. :-) I have another question if you don't mind. "Izeleth" has always been my elven name in AD&D, but would it be viable in Middle-Earth at all? Also, do you perhaps know of a website dealing with elven names?

05-26-2004, 02:47 PM	#7
Albrecht Guest Posts: n/a	Thank you for that update, Kransha. :-) The name generator at this site works fine, but I'd spend an awful lot of time trying to find a name to my liking when it only generates one at a time. I was hoping someone would know of a generator generating several random elven names at once? I also have another question regarding elven names. Don't they have any kind of surnames at all? I haven't noticed, but do they introduce themselves as "xxxxxx, son/daughter of xxxx" like the men and dwarves do? Would the name "Izeléth" work for an elf of Middle-Earth, and would you consider it to be a male, female or andrygonous (ehm I know that was not spelled correctly) name?

05-26-2004, 05:41 PM	#9
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	I've always thought that names like Arwen Undomiel and Elrond Peredhil were just two names, not a real surname. Same with Éomer Eadig and Fréaláf Hildeson. Otherwise wouldn't she be Arwen Peredhil? The Men of Bree have last names too. And Aragorn took a "family name" when he took the crown: Telcontar (Strider in Quenya). Izeléth looks more like Adûndiac (the langauge of Numenore) than Elvish. Z's are very rare in Elvish, but I think pretty common in Adûniac. If it were Elvish, I'd say it's a girl name because of the 'eth', I think that's a feminine ending. I could quite easily be wrong on that. So if there are only fiefs in Gondor, then there are a lot of 'vassals' for varying noblity. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

05-27-2004, 08:11 AM	#10
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The surnames aren't really surnames...they aren't like the last names we have now. The only example of surnames as they are now is the hobbits. Undomiel and Peredhil are not surnames...simply titles or even nicknames given. Arwen is the 'Evenstar' of her people, and Elrond is half-elven...they're pretty self-explanatory. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

05-27-2004, 02:43 PM	#12
Albrecht Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks again for the feedback, it's great to have such learned men and women offer their expertise. So they occasionally use two first names like us, but no last names. I have been trying to find a Rohirric name I'm comfortable with for hours now, and finally I have come up with a couple ones I truly like. I've used two first names... it just seems so short with just the one and no surname. I have done something I'm not proud of though... I've used a name from an actual character as the last part of all my names. It just looked so good I couldn't help myself. I'm hoping it will work since its the last part of the name and not the first, but I'll let you guys be the judge of that. "Alchred Éothain" "Aethelric Éothain" (Éothain being a close friend of Éomer unless I'm mistaken) What say the jury? Last edited by Albrecht; 05-27-2004 at 03:32 PM.

05-27-2004, 06:38 PM	#13
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	I like Aethelric Éothain best. Éothain was a member of Éomer's éored, if memory serves, so they were close (whether they liked that fact or not ) Hmmm...let's see how many more times I can type 'é'......... __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

05-28-2004, 04:35 AM	#14
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Knight or not Eliana, The guards of the king or steward were called guards of the citadel but were also known as knights of the city. You don't have to ride a horse to be a knight. Then you have Imrahil's knights of dol amroth who actually rode horses, as they rode out with gandalf to save Faramir's retreating troops. Then you have Merry who was taken in, by Eomer, as a knight of rohan. If you ask me, the term knight is used by Tolkien but doesn't seem the "proper" or maybe "most commone term." Yes Eothain was of Eomer's eored.

05-28-2004, 05:37 AM	#15
Albrecht Guest Posts: n/a	I have decided to go with "Aethelwulf Éothain". Now that i have my name ready, I can finally begin writing his biography. Somehow I just need to know the name to know what he will be like... know the feel of it. :-) I have a couple of questions about the Eorlingas now if you don't mind. - Do most of the people of Rohan know how to read and write, or only the "wisest" of them? - How much does the average man of Rohan know about the lore of Middle-Earth? Does he know about the Valar? The three elven rings? The Nazgul? The Balrog? The Shire even? That's all, thanks.

05-28-2004, 07:36 AM	#16
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Stop fussing at me about knights!! I get it! I think the Rohirric people has mostly a oral tradtion of learning. They did have a writting system, but probably only those in Edoras and in the army really know a lot of it. Could be wrong. I think that with Rohan, as in most countries of Middle-earth, they know of other places, some of other places' histories, but were mainly concerned with their own. The Rohirrim did know about Oromë at least, who gave them horses, and mostly likely knew of Manwë and Varda, but I'm uncertain about the other Valar. They definately would NOT know about the Three, not even all the Elves knew of them; they were hidden. They probably knew as much about the Nazgûl as any average Gondorian. And wouldn't know about the Balrog, not even Gandalf really knew if Durin's Bane would trouble them. They knew of the "hole-builders" who lived near them before they came to Rohan, but probably thought there were none left, before meeting Merry and Pippin. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

05-29-2004, 08:29 PM	#17
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Old German names like Albrecht would fit well in a projected, that is, reasonable, but not strictly canonical context. The Rohirrim have OE names because they needed to seem archaic compared to Westron/English. Their ancestors in the north had Gothic names; the Beornings have OE names as well. If we were to give people somewhere around Rhovanion their own language or at least dialect of Westron, Old or Middle High German could be a good guess.

06-03-2004, 03:01 PM	#18
Albrecht Guest Posts: n/a	All your assistance has been highly appreciated. :-) I need to get the new elven name I'd like to use accepted now, I'd like for it to be appropriate. "Acherndîr Cristmaethor" It should mean Vengeful Swordwarrior in Sindarin, but I added the "dîr" to Achern to make it look better, and "dîr" means mature/fully grown.