Denethor and Theoden - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tyler · 12-04-2002, 04:41 PM

This is a post to involve Theoden more because he is one of my favorite characters and never seems to get much attention.

What if Denethor and Theoden reactions were switched? By that I mean Denethor became galvanized and rose and Theoden stayed depressed and gone a bit crazy. Helm's Deep would have never happened and the Rohirrim would have never come to help Gondor. Probably Rohan would have been destroyed in general. Then Gondor would have risen up stronger than they did. This would have maybe made a more impressive fight. (Not to say a good one didn’t happen)

Another question is who would win in a fight between the two?

the phantom · 12-04-2002, 10:06 PM

If Theoden and Denethor would've been switched, it would've meant a sure victory for Sauron. Without Rohan moving against Saruman, Saruman destroys them and then comes up against Minas Tirith at the same time as Sauron does, doubling the attack. Only Minas Tirith would be without all those extra riders from Rohan, so they couldn't put up as much of a fight. Basically, it would've been hopeless for them.

I'm glad it turned out the way it did!

Inderjit Sanghera · 12-05-2002, 04:35 AM

I just don't think it would have worked, since their characters were so different. If Theoden had been like Denethor, the he certainly wouldn't have listned to Wormtongue and so the whole ring saga would've been dratsically diffrent.

Nuranar · 12-05-2002, 07:12 AM

(playing devil's advocate)

But what difference would Denethor's character have made to Minas Tirith? With their leader before them, would the men of Minas Tirith have risen in greater numbers and with greater will to fight? How much closer would the battle have been, even with Saruman's forces and without the Rohan reinforcements?

Meela · 12-05-2002, 03:13 PM

wowee.... good topic! two of my fave characters [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

sorry i dont have an answer to this post, but could somebody please tell me where i can find info on denethor, if any? is there a place in the appendices? and is he mentioned in ttt book itself? or does he just appear in the third?

Kalimac · 12-05-2002, 11:50 PM

Good point, Nuranar. The trouble is that we can never know what Gondor might have been capable of doing if Denethor hadn't been spending most of his time looking at the Palantir and thinking about how he was doomed. Who knows, it might have turned out exactly the same in the end...except, who would have killed the Witch-King if Eowyn had never had the chance to go to the Pelennor Fields? Unless Ioreth decided to put on a mail-shirt and take a stab at it... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-08-2002, 08:56 AM

If Denethor was King of Rohan, he would have fought and beat Saruman all the same, maybe.

I guess the only real difference would be in the morale of the Rohirrim, but I don't think that would have mattered too much.

12-04-2002, 04:41 PM	#1
Tyler Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 37	Denethor and Theoden This is a post to involve Theoden more because he is one of my favorite characters and never seems to get much attention. What if Denethor and Theoden reactions were switched? By that I mean Denethor became galvanized and rose and Theoden stayed depressed and gone a bit crazy. Helm's Deep would have never happened and the Rohirrim would have never come to help Gondor. Probably Rohan would have been destroyed in general. Then Gondor would have risen up stronger than they did. This would have maybe made a more impressive fight. (Not to say a good one didn’t happen) Another question is who would win in a fight between the two? __________________ Not all who wander are lost. -Tolkien

12-04-2002, 10:06 PM	#2
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	If Theoden and Denethor would've been switched, it would've meant a sure victory for Sauron. Without Rohan moving against Saruman, Saruman destroys them and then comes up against Minas Tirith at the same time as Sauron does, doubling the attack. Only Minas Tirith would be without all those extra riders from Rohan, so they couldn't put up as much of a fight. Basically, it would've been hopeless for them. I'm glad it turned out the way it did! __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

12-05-2002, 04:35 AM	#3
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I just don't think it would have worked, since their characters were so different. If Theoden had been like Denethor, the he certainly wouldn't have listned to Wormtongue and so the whole ring saga would've been dratsically diffrent. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

12-05-2002, 07:12 AM	#4
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	(playing devil's advocate) But what difference would Denethor's character have made to Minas Tirith? With their leader before them, would the men of Minas Tirith have risen in greater numbers and with greater will to fight? How much closer would the battle have been, even with Saruman's forces and without the Rohan reinforcements? __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

12-05-2002, 03:13 PM	#5
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	wowee.... good topic! two of my fave characters [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] sorry i dont have an answer to this post, but could somebody please tell me where i can find info on denethor, if any? is there a place in the appendices? and is he mentioned in ttt book itself? or does he just appear in the third? __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

12-05-2002, 11:50 PM	#6
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Good point, Nuranar. The trouble is that we can never know what Gondor might have been capable of doing if Denethor hadn't been spending most of his time looking at the Palantir and thinking about how he was doomed. Who knows, it might have turned out exactly the same in the end...except, who would have killed the Witch-King if Eowyn had never had the chance to go to the Pelennor Fields? Unless Ioreth decided to put on a mail-shirt and take a stab at it... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-08-2002, 08:56 AM	#7
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	If Denethor was King of Rohan, he would have fought and beat Saruman all the same, maybe. I guess the only real difference would be in the morale of the Rohirrim, but I don't think that would have mattered too much. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond