Orcs Vs. Dwarves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mattius · 10-08-2002, 03:12 PM

I can remember reading in the appendix of Return of the King (I don't have it any longer) that there was a war between the Dwarves and the Orcs at Moria. All I can remember is a dwarf leader had his head chopped off and it was a war of revenge rather than to re-capture Moria. Could anyone just tell me about it because it is really bugging me!

Legolas · 10-08-2002, 05:26 PM

The war came about after Azog, Orc-leader, killed King Thror. The dwarves assembled their armies and waged war on the goblins in the Misty Moutains. At last, they reached the 'residence' of Azog, which was, in fact, Moria. The dwarven armies, lead by Thrain and his cousin Nain, were victorious in the final battle, the Battle of Nanduhirion.

A young Dain Ironfoot (leader of the dwarven army that came from the Iron Hills to aid Thorin some years later in the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit) murdered Azog.

You also probably recall the goblin-leader Bolg who was murdered in the Battle of Five Armies by Beorn in The Hobbit. He was Azog's son, and his father's death, along with the 'trespassing' of Gandalf, Bilbo, and Thorin's company lead to his dislike for the dwarves and his attack that caused the Battle of Five Armies just as the Thranduil's elves of Mirkwood and the men of Laketown were about to fight with Thorin's company at the Lonely Mountain.

Kuruharan · 10-08-2002, 05:40 PM

Quote:

A young Dain Ironfoot...murdered Azog.

Murdered?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Murdered you say?!

Dain didn't murder anyone. He killed the cowardly bugger as he was chicken-heartedly fleeing the battle. (After said bugger had just killed Dain's father.) That's not exactly murder.

Legolas · 10-08-2002, 05:58 PM

murder (v.): to put an end to

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Perhaps "slayed" would've given a better depiction?

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Kuruharan · 10-08-2002, 08:20 PM

Well, slaying does have (dare I say) better connotations. The word murdered carries such heavy baggage around with it... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Mattius · 10-09-2002, 02:45 AM

So what year did it happen in?

Telchar · 10-09-2002, 02:59 AM

The war between dwarves and orcs started in TA 2793 and ended with that Battle in Nanduhirion (Dimrill Dale) in TA 2799.

Mattius · 10-09-2002, 03:12 AM

Tank You Berry Much

Selmo · 10-09-2002, 06:36 AM

The Dwarf-Orc war is described in some detail in the Appendices to The Lord of The Rings.

Mattius · 10-09-2002, 12:44 PM

Yeah I said that on my first post.

Nils · 10-11-2002, 02:56 PM

Does the way the Dwarves carried out thier plan to take vengence on Azog speak directly to Dwarven Intellence?

Dwarf 1: "Let's see now, where was Azog?"

Dwarf 2: "In Khazad-dûm."

Dwarf 1: "Where do you think we can find Azog?"

Dwarf 2: "I don't know, let's try looking from Gundabad to the Gladden. If he's not in one of the traditional Orc territories, then we might try looking in Khazad-dûm."

Knight of Gondor · 10-11-2002, 08:09 PM

This, by the way, is where Thorin got his nickname of Oakenshield because it is said his shield was cloven, and he hewed the limb of an oak tree and used it for a shield.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-13-2002, 01:23 PM

Dwarf Intelligence? They just wanted to kill a lot of Orcs before ending with Azog, that's all.

Nils · 10-13-2002, 01:56 PM

If this were true, then why did they stop the war after killing Azog? There were plenty more Orks to kill.

Bill Ferny · 10-13-2002, 01:57 PM

Nils,

One does not march directly upon the king's castle, and ignore the king's outer fortifications. If one did, then one would be attacked from behind as well as from the front.

The line, "they hunted Azog in every den under mountain," expresses more of their fury than intelligence. They were exacting their vengence on every being that shared the same vile nature as the hated Azog. Apparently, the rage of the dwarves was very frightful, and they were guilty of as many "cruel deeds" as their enemy.

In fact, dwarven intelligence, or at least their prowess in survival, should not be questioned. Even after Sauron crushed the legendary Eregion, the dwarf realm of Moria resisted him. In the end, it wasn't a lack of intelligence, but greed for mithril that spelt the end of Moria, the Balrog accomplishing by a twist of fate what Sauron could not. Even after the fall of Moria, the scattered dwarves forged for themselves mighty realms in the Iron Hills, Erebor, and the Blue Mountains. Only the greatest dragon of that day had the where with all to destroy the dwarven realm of Erebor.

Besides, if it wasn't for the bravery of the dwarves, along with the Bardings and Beornings, Rivendale would have been a smoldering ruin before the end of the War of the Ring.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Nils · 10-13-2002, 02:55 PM

Bill,

Dwarves are probably my favorite of all the races(too bad so little is written about them). Perhaps there is truth in what you say.

I just thought of a reason why the Dwarves may have been hesitant to go near Moria: Galadriel.

If I were a dwarf, I don't know if I'd want Elves to my back and Orcs to my front. Never trust an elf.

Bill Ferny · 10-13-2002, 03:06 PM

I wish there was more written about them as well. I perfer the company of a dwarf over an elf any day. But, alas, it appears that in Tolkien's mind at least, the dwarves were a bit of background for his greater history of elves and men. Too bad.

I'm affraid that most fantacy literature goes the same road as Tolkien. The dwarves exist on the margins of the main story, sometimes used to add color to the world, sometimes playing a major role despite their greed for shinny things.

But I wonder if a race with bearded women will ever truly be able to capture the imaginations of the general public. For example, replace the elves with the dwarves in the LotRs. Just picture Aragorn bending over to plant a wet one underneith Arwen's shaggy mustache.

Nils · 10-13-2002, 03:41 PM

I don't know, Aragorn might have been used to it seeing as some of his ancestors would have had the same problem.

I can only imagine a dwarven Luthien "dancing" under the trees and Beren falling hopelessly in love with her(?).

It would give a whole new meaning to Legolas' comment about the Prince of Dol Amroth.

10-08-2002, 03:12 PM	#1
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	Orcs Vs. Dwarves I can remember reading in the appendix of Return of the King (I don't have it any longer) that there was a war between the Dwarves and the Orcs at Moria. All I can remember is a dwarf leader had his head chopped off and it was a war of revenge rather than to re-capture Moria. Could anyone just tell me about it because it is really bugging me! __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

10-08-2002, 05:26 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The war came about after Azog, Orc-leader, killed King Thror. The dwarves assembled their armies and waged war on the goblins in the Misty Moutains. At last, they reached the 'residence' of Azog, which was, in fact, Moria. The dwarven armies, lead by Thrain and his cousin Nain, were victorious in the final battle, the Battle of Nanduhirion. A young Dain Ironfoot (leader of the dwarven army that came from the Iron Hills to aid Thorin some years later in the Battle of Five Armies in The Hobbit) murdered Azog. You also probably recall the goblin-leader Bolg who was murdered in the Battle of Five Armies by Beorn in The Hobbit. He was Azog's son, and his father's death, along with the 'trespassing' of Gandalf, Bilbo, and Thorin's company lead to his dislike for the dwarves and his attack that caused the Battle of Five Armies just as the Thranduil's elves of Mirkwood and the men of Laketown were about to fight with Thorin's company at the Lonely Mountain. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-08-2002, 05:58 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	murder (v.): to put an end to [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Perhaps "slayed" would've given a better depiction? [ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-08-2002, 08:20 PM	#5
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	Well, slaying does have (dare I say) better connotations. The word murdered carries such heavy baggage around with it... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

10-09-2002, 02:45 AM	#6
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	So what year did it happen in? __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

10-09-2002, 02:59 AM	#7
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	The war between dwarves and orcs started in TA 2793 and ended with that Battle in Nanduhirion (Dimrill Dale) in TA 2799. __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

10-09-2002, 03:12 AM	#8
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	Tank You Berry Much __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

10-09-2002, 06:36 AM	#9
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	The Dwarf-Orc war is described in some detail in the Appendices to The Lord of The Rings.

10-09-2002, 12:44 PM	#10
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	Yeah I said that on my first post. __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

10-11-2002, 02:56 PM	#11
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	Does the way the Dwarves carried out thier plan to take vengence on Azog speak directly to Dwarven Intellence? Dwarf 1: "Let's see now, where was Azog?" Dwarf 2: "In Khazad-dûm." Dwarf 1: "Where do you think we can find Azog?" Dwarf 2: "I don't know, let's try looking from Gundabad to the Gladden. If he's not in one of the traditional Orc territories, then we might try looking in Khazad-dûm." __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

10-11-2002, 08:09 PM	#12
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	This, by the way, is where Thorin got his nickname of Oakenshield because it is said his shield was cloven, and he hewed the limb of an oak tree and used it for a shield. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

10-13-2002, 01:23 PM	#13
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Dwarf Intelligence? They just wanted to kill a lot of Orcs before ending with Azog, that's all. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-13-2002, 01:56 PM	#14
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	If this were true, then why did they stop the war after killing Azog? There were plenty more Orks to kill. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

10-13-2002, 01:57 PM	#15
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Nils, One does not march directly upon the king's castle, and ignore the king's outer fortifications. If one did, then one would be attacked from behind as well as from the front. The line, "they hunted Azog in every den under mountain," expresses more of their fury than intelligence. They were exacting their vengence on every being that shared the same vile nature as the hated Azog. Apparently, the rage of the dwarves was very frightful, and they were guilty of as many "cruel deeds" as their enemy. In fact, dwarven intelligence, or at least their prowess in survival, should not be questioned. Even after Sauron crushed the legendary Eregion, the dwarf realm of Moria resisted him. In the end, it wasn't a lack of intelligence, but greed for mithril that spelt the end of Moria, the Balrog accomplishing by a twist of fate what Sauron could not. Even after the fall of Moria, the scattered dwarves forged for themselves mighty realms in the Iron Hills, Erebor, and the Blue Mountains. Only the greatest dragon of that day had the where with all to destroy the dwarven realm of Erebor. Besides, if it wasn't for the bravery of the dwarves, along with the Bardings and Beornings, Rivendale would have been a smoldering ruin before the end of the War of the Ring. [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ] __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

10-13-2002, 02:55 PM	#16
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	Bill, Dwarves are probably my favorite of all the races(too bad so little is written about them). Perhaps there is truth in what you say. I just thought of a reason why the Dwarves may have been hesitant to go near Moria: Galadriel. If I were a dwarf, I don't know if I'd want Elves to my back and Orcs to my front. Never trust an elf. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

10-13-2002, 03:06 PM	#17
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	I wish there was more written about them as well. I perfer the company of a dwarf over an elf any day. But, alas, it appears that in Tolkien's mind at least, the dwarves were a bit of background for his greater history of elves and men. Too bad. I'm affraid that most fantacy literature goes the same road as Tolkien. The dwarves exist on the margins of the main story, sometimes used to add color to the world, sometimes playing a major role despite their greed for shinny things. But I wonder if a race with bearded women will ever truly be able to capture the imaginations of the general public. For example, replace the elves with the dwarves in the LotRs. Just picture Aragorn bending over to plant a wet one underneith Arwen's shaggy mustache. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

10-13-2002, 03:41 PM	#18
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	I don't know, Aragorn might have been used to it seeing as some of his ancestors would have had the same problem. I can only imagine a dwarven Luthien "dancing" under the trees and Beren falling hopelessly in love with her(?). It would give a whole new meaning to Legolas' comment about the Prince of Dol Amroth. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37