That Extra Race - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Losthuniel · 08-28-2002, 11:33 AM

There is one more race in Arda (barley mentonied, but yes, it is there): Slyphs. No, wait, don't go! I have a quote to back it up:

Quote:

More silken-soft,more strange and fair
than sylphine maidens of the Air
Whose wings in Varda's heavenly hall
in rhythmic movement beat and fall

-Lays of Beleriand, Lay of Leithian, Canto XIII, lines 4076-4079

Could be considered irrelevant, except for a passage in the Silm:

Quote:

many of those lesser Vali who loved them and played nigh them and attuned their music to theirs, and these are the Mánir and the Sùruli, the slyphs of the air and the winds

- the Silmarillion, The coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor

Those who have read The Lay will realize I am stating the obvious, so don't shoot me, please.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Losthuniel ]

Arwen Imladris · 08-28-2002, 11:47 AM

Hmm, that is very interesting. I never noticed that before. Cool! Did you have a question or did you just want to share that?

Losthuniel · 08-28-2002, 11:48 AM

I was just sharing. I thought some people might find it interesting.

Aramacil · 08-28-2002, 12:01 PM

Cool, I didn't know this, thanks for sharing this with us.

Eol · 08-28-2002, 12:08 PM

I think that above mentioned is part of what Tolkien never followed up on. It is never metioned again in Silmarillion as far as I know of.

ask the people who religiously read the HoMe series, as I do not know anything of them and care not to.

Lhunbelethiel · 08-28-2002, 12:08 PM

Nope, sorry. Sylph is an adjective. Here is the definition, see entry 2!

Main Entry: sylph
Pronunciation: 'silf
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin sylphus
Date: 1657
1 : an elemental being in the theory of Paracelsus that inhabits air
2 : a slender graceful woman or girl

piosenniel · 08-28-2002, 12:20 PM

Sylph is an adjective.

No, it's a noun - just as was noted in the entry on definition:

Function: noun
2 : a slender graceful woman or girl

Were it to be used as an adjective, you would use the word 'sylphine' as was noted in the initial quote from The Lays of Beleriand

Quote:

. . . sylphine maidens . . .

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Lhunbelethiel · 08-28-2002, 12:28 PM

*smirk*

It wasn't my original quote...btw.

Lots of mistakes in this thread on several people's parts! ooooooooooops!

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lhunbelethiel ]

Davin · 08-28-2002, 06:34 PM

lol.....I am getting confused by reading this. So is this a new race or not???

Rumil · 08-28-2002, 07:01 PM

Surely the 'sylphs' were just a subset of the Maiar, those who were air-related spirits, perhaps associates of Manwe? The forerunners of the Balrogs and the Sun were fire related spirits. To round out the four elements, I expect Ulmo's friends were the water spirits and Aule's (and perhaps Yavanna's) followers were earth spirits.

Of course as Maiar they would be unlikely to be constricted by these roles (witness the Istari), perhaps an affinity or 'alignment' with the different elements is more likely?

What about Ogres and Pygmies, two races referred to briefly in early writings in HoME? I guess JRRT didn't want to take these any further but these could be interesting possibilities for RPGs or FanFic

Orome · 08-28-2002, 08:22 PM

i don't know much about this but from the 2 Quotes posted it sounds more like a discription than a race

Lhunbelethiel · 08-29-2002, 10:01 AM

And what category do the trolls fall into?!

Orome · 08-29-2002, 06:35 PM

what do you mean? Trolls were bred in an imitation of the ents if thats what you want to know

Lhunbelethiel · 08-29-2002, 10:45 PM

Yes, that was what I wanted to know.
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lhunbelethiel ]

Losthuniel · 08-30-2002, 05:38 PM

I'm rather confused myself, but this is how I see it: Slyphs: another name for the "subdivision" of Maiar, belonging to the air.
Forgive my misleading wording on the original post.

Aiwendil · 08-30-2002, 07:50 PM

I think it should be noted that the quote:

Quote:

many of those lesser Vali who loved them and played nigh them and attuned their music to theirs, and these are the Mánir and the Sùruli, the slyphs of the air and the winds

appears to be from an early version of the Silmarillion (note 'Vali' rather than 'Valar'). I'm pretty sure that in later versions, the Manir and Suruli are not mentioned.

ork _huntr · 08-31-2002, 01:59 PM

in more than tolkien's work are there sylphs. in a lot of greek mythology they mention sylphs. kinda a fairy / angel thingy. i don't think they're technicly a race. kinda like wights. (no offense) they're to mystery surronded to be considered a real race or not. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Galorme · 09-02-2002, 04:37 AM

"the slyphs of the air and the winds" were Ainur who were not Valar and did not wish to enter into their service (i had a dream i was one of those once). They didn't really have bodies or forms, they just rode the air and water currents enjoying existance. They could even have been what cause air and water currents.

This could be totally wrong tell me if it is cause it is mainly my interpritation.

Rosseiliantiel · 09-05-2002, 08:14 PM

That would make sense to me [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Tirned Tinnu · 09-06-2002, 05:07 AM

Yes, I often wondered about the other spirits spoken of in The SIl. I took this to mean that they were of the Air, and therefore, you might think of them as "The Winds". Note that in LOTR, Aragorn's tribute to Boromir invoked the Wind Directions, as if he spoke to their spirit. Hmmmmmm!

08-28-2002, 11:47 AM	#2
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Hmm, that is very interesting. I never noticed that before. Cool! Did you have a question or did you just want to share that? __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

08-28-2002, 11:48 AM	#3
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	I was just sharing. I thought some people might find it interesting. __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

08-28-2002, 12:01 PM	#4
Aramacil Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 131	Cool, I didn't know this, thanks for sharing this with us. __________________ "I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."

08-28-2002, 12:08 PM	#5
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	I think that above mentioned is part of what Tolkien never followed up on. It is never metioned again in Silmarillion as far as I know of. ask the people who religiously read the HoMe series, as I do not know anything of them and care not to. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

08-28-2002, 12:08 PM	#6
Lhunbelethiel Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas) Posts: 103	Nope, sorry. Sylph is an adjective. Here is the definition, see entry 2! Main Entry: sylph Pronunciation: 'silf Function: noun Etymology: New Latin sylphus Date: 1657 1 : an elemental being in the theory of Paracelsus that inhabits air 2 : a slender graceful woman or girl __________________ ~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~

08-28-2002, 12:28 PM	#8
Lhunbelethiel Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas) Posts: 103	smirk It wasn't my original quote...btw. Lots of mistakes in this thread on several people's parts! ooooooooooops! [ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lhunbelethiel ] __________________ ~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~

08-28-2002, 06:34 PM	#9
Davin Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 166	lol.....I am getting confused by reading this. So is this a new race or not??? __________________ So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. »»The Telmena««

08-28-2002, 07:01 PM	#10
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Surely the 'sylphs' were just a subset of the Maiar, those who were air-related spirits, perhaps associates of Manwe? The forerunners of the Balrogs and the Sun were fire related spirits. To round out the four elements, I expect Ulmo's friends were the water spirits and Aule's (and perhaps Yavanna's) followers were earth spirits. Of course as Maiar they would be unlikely to be constricted by these roles (witness the Istari), perhaps an affinity or 'alignment' with the different elements is more likely? What about Ogres and Pygmies, two races referred to briefly in early writings in HoME? I guess JRRT didn't want to take these any further but these could be interesting possibilities for RPGs or FanFic __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

08-28-2002, 08:22 PM	#11
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	i don't know much about this but from the 2 Quotes posted it sounds more like a discription than a race

08-29-2002, 10:01 AM	#12
Lhunbelethiel Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas) Posts: 103	And what category do the trolls fall into?! __________________ ~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~

08-29-2002, 06:35 PM	#13
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	what do you mean? Trolls were bred in an imitation of the ents if thats what you want to know

08-29-2002, 10:45 PM	#14
Lhunbelethiel Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas) Posts: 103	Yes, that was what I wanted to know. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lhunbelethiel ] __________________ ~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~

08-30-2002, 05:38 PM	#15
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	I'm rather confused myself, but this is how I see it: Slyphs: another name for the "subdivision" of Maiar, belonging to the air. Forgive my misleading wording on the original post. __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

08-31-2002, 01:59 PM	#17
ork _huntr Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: if i knew i would tell you Posts: 12	in more than tolkien's work are there sylphs. in a lot of greek mythology they mention sylphs. kinda a fairy / angel thingy. i don't think they're technicly a race. kinda like wights. (no offense) they're to mystery surronded to be considered a real race or not. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ i can't take his money, i can't print my own money, i have to work for money,why don't i just die? oh.. so that's what that button does.

09-02-2002, 04:37 AM	#18
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	"the slyphs of the air and the winds" were Ainur who were not Valar and did not wish to enter into their service (i had a dream i was one of those once). They didn't really have bodies or forms, they just rode the air and water currents enjoying existance. They could even have been what cause air and water currents. This could be totally wrong tell me if it is cause it is mainly my interpritation. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

09-05-2002, 08:14 PM	#19
Rosseiliantiel Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hopelessly lost Posts: 174	That would make sense to me [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Whatever floats your oyster.

09-06-2002, 05:07 AM	#20
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Yes, I often wondered about the other spirits spoken of in The SIl. I took this to mean that they were of the Air, and therefore, you might think of them as "The Winds". Note that in LOTR, Aragorn's tribute to Boromir invoked the Wind Directions, as if he spoke to their spirit. Hmmmmmm! __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'