Christopher Tolkien - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 09:18 AM

How well did he do? What would you rather he had done? What did you think he did well? Discuss any edition of the Sil and any improvements to it you felt could have been made. I'll post my thoughts after a few answers. Making the assumption, of course, that there are replies...

littlemanpoet · 07-12-2002, 10:37 AM

Not quite an answer but something to bring things to a boil, perhaps: my brother, also a great fan of Tolkien, posited this theory to me that Smith of Wooton Major may be allegorical in this sense: late in his life Tolkien knew that he would have to pass on his Star, his creative legendarium, to someone and that person would continue where he had left off, or at least enter the realm of Faerie in his place. In SOWM, the Smith did NOT give the Star to his son. Alf had him put it back in the box, and then Alf gave Smith the right to appoint the next bearer of the Star; Smith did NOT choose his son, but his wife's sister-son, a boy who was 'not an obvious choice', but there's something about him.

Could it be, therefore, that JRRT was in this way saying that Christopher was not supposed to be the one to carry on, but someone else who would not be an obvious choice?

No intent to steal your thunder, Stephanos, but it does seem appropo.

lmp

burrahobbit · 07-12-2002, 10:38 AM

He did better that Brian Herbert, this I am certain of.

I am very glad to have the various stories published in a form that I can read them in. Some of my favorite stories are ones from the Sil and UT that I never would have seen if C. Tolkien hadn't put them together.

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 10:55 AM

Thunder entirely 'un-stolen', lmp. Intriguing suggestion, albeit one I will confess to dallying with myself. I came to a similar conclusion after Smith of Wooton Major but decided to drop the notion and take the story on its merits due to my belief in Tolkien's aversion to allegory. To state bluntly, avoiding the circuitous sesquipedalian lexicon of my normal speech (say that when you're tipsy), I don't think Tolkien would have made such a blunt statement.

He could not have expected his son to miss the point...so I don't think he intended it to be read that way. IMO.

I totally concur with you, burra, on Brian Herbert. A more horrible mismash of the original texts I cannot fathom. A great sadness, for the initial series was a source of great delight and insight for me.

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-12-2002, 01:36 PM

Personally, I think Christopher Tolkien knew what his father wanted with Middle Earth (some of LOTR was sent to him in South Africa while JRR was writing it in England) and did a great job compiling his father's notebooks. btw Who's Brian Herbert?

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 01:45 PM

Son of Frank Herbert.

Frank Herbert - author of Dune (6 novels) and collated short stories and scientific journals. Left behind a Tolkien-like body of work set in a science fiction environment. His son had the same task as Christopher Tolkien and did considerably worse.

Still I would ask for a reply to the initial question(s).

burrahobbit · 07-12-2002, 01:46 PM

You really don't want to know that, Aldagrim Proudfoot. The person that is much more interesting to look into is Frank Herbert.

Child of the 7th Age · 07-12-2002, 02:00 PM

Maybe it would have been better if Tolkien had first issued the volumes of HoMe and then edited the Silmarillion. Of course, this was impossible from a publishing standpoint! And I know that I have the benefit of hindsight in saying this.

However, faced with the apparently huge pile of manuscripts, would it have been better if Christopher had taken at least a few more years to familiarize himself with the bulk of the material and then publish the Silm in 1980 or so? For example, if Christopher's aim was to chose the most recent version, he did not do that in regard to the Ainulindale which he himself admitted.

Some of the writings Tolkien did in the last years of his life that are included in Morgoth's Ring or Unfinished Tales or Vinyar Tengwar (e.g., osanwe-kenta) do not appear in the Silm itself. These later speculations seem to go further than his earlier views, e.g. conversation between Andreth and Finrod regarding the fate of Arda at the end, relation of Man and Elves; way the world will be healed, mind-to-mind communication, etc. I like many of these later things and wish they had been included.

I am no expert on this, and I'd appreciate hearing what someone else thinks.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Rimbaud · 07-15-2002, 08:57 AM

Indeed, with much I concur. It was always my desire to have a definitive Silmarillion. I have an original hardback but sadly, when I contrast it with more recently published works and editions, it disappoints me. Insofar as the aforesaid, therefore, I agree that he should have taken longer - he had time - to create a more fully fledged Sil.

However, I desire not to demean the fine efforts he put into the assimilation of many years of his father's abundance of material. It remains a fine attempt and I know I could have done no better; although I may well have given myself a longer time to undertake such an endeavour.

So...one leg on this side of the fence...and t'other over there. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-15-2002, 11:39 AM

Quote:

I could have done no better.

I don't think anyboby could. In answer to your question. I think he did an excellent job. JRR Tolkien was a genius and his son captured that.

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Aldagrim Proudfoot ]

littlemanpoet · 07-16-2002, 07:33 AM

I guess I wish CT had written the Sil more like the bible. Yes, I've read that it already is much like it, but there's a difference. The bible contains broad sweeps and then narrows down to a tight focus on one individual, such as Joseph in Egypt, for example. I wish CT had done that more with the Sil. I wish he had given us the detailed version of Turin, instead of the somewhat truncated version contained in the Silm. Same goes for Luthien and Beren. These stories deserved full coverage in the Silm and I wish CT had given it to us. Yes, he did give us those writings in later editions, but I really think they belong in the Silm.

Tarthang · 07-16-2002, 08:21 AM

Personally, I think CT should have never have published the Silm, and only done the
HoME series.
The way I see it, all the differing versions of the same stories in HoME were JRRT's way of feeling out how he wanted to present ME's First Age. The fact that he never managed to finish leaves for a large margin of error
in CT's (or anyone elses) synthesis of these
versions (i.e. the Silm). Simply because no one can be certain that's how the story would have been presented in it's final form by JRRT, had he completed this task.

Rimbaud · 07-16-2002, 08:37 AM

Hmm, well that opinion should send a few ripples...

Tarthang, in my humble opinion, JRRT had not 'finished' or 'final' version of anything. It wasn't the way he worked. A s I have said before, he was trying to create a mythology , not necessarily a straight-forward, linear and coherent story. To that end, he created and mutated many many storylines and told them with varying levels of detail. Put together, much of the work does not correlate exactly. However, he was desirous that people should read and enjoy his work, and so it fell upon CT, afetr his father's death, to create some sort of linear text for the major stories. JRRT had already constructed some of the way the book should be laid out; the frightful task of editing and assimilating the myriad stories was handled for the most part adeptly, IMO.

I agree with lmp's points, about Turin Turambar especially, and that ties in with Child's comment about taking greater time on the first release. That said, I still think he should have published a version of the Silmarillion. I suppose I would merely have preferred a greater level of detail to have been included.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

Belin · 07-16-2002, 08:39 AM

Tarthang--I admit I've read very, very little of HoME, but I'm beginning to work on parts of it, and I must say that the Silm's existence has its virtues. It, unlike HoME, was put together to be read. It's able to present the events all together in a roughly story-like fashion. If you're reading for the story itself, having this makes a lot of sense. It's much more difficult to get a sense of ME chronological progression and the connections between things from the myriad drafts (particularly as some parts of the history seem to have interested the author more than others). Also (and related), having read it is making it easier for me to follow the texts that weren't ready to be read, and at least in the beginning here, exactly because it provided this map and story-like vision.
Does this make any sense?

--Belin Ibaimendi

greyhavener · 07-19-2002, 10:40 AM

JRR was a better writer than Christopher. I think Christopher is a good scholar and is trying to be faithful to his father's creation, but I want a good story too.

Littlemanpoet makes an excellent point in how the Bible begins broad then narrows it's focus to the account of an individual. I've said in another thread that I believe the study of history needs more focus on individuals as well.

My problem with HoME and somewhat even with the Silm is that they don't tell the stories of the characters as well as LOTR does. There are wonderful characters to work with but the story just doesn't make the impact for me.

Rimbaud · 08-27-2002, 08:53 AM

My enfeebled but occasionally active grey matter was assaulted of late by a thought that belongs on this thread. With reference to the Narn I Hîn Húrin: although I wish CT had delayed and enlarged the publication and scope of the Silmarillion respectively, that is not what happened. However, in Unfinished Tales he missed out the passages that appeared already verbatim within his original Silmarillion. I understand that it would be inherently redundant to have reprinted the passages, yet part of me wishes it had been done so for I would love to read it as a whole, without flipping between books.

littlemanpoet · 08-27-2002, 09:44 AM

Precisely. I agree.

On the other hand, I really enjoy The Lays of Beleriand, a poetic retelling of the story of Luthien and Beren. But I don't think it would work to have the poetic version in the Silm., but the entire narratie ought to be there and the poetry in the HoME. Of course, that's already been said in this thread. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

07-12-2002, 09:18 AM	#1
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Christopher Tolkien How well did he do? What would you rather he had done? What did you think he did well? Discuss any edition of the Sil and any improvements to it you felt could have been made. I'll post my thoughts after a few answers. Making the assumption, of course, that there are replies... __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-12-2002, 10:38 AM	#3
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	He did better that Brian Herbert, this I am certain of. I am very glad to have the various stories published in a form that I can read them in. Some of my favorite stories are ones from the Sil and UT that I never would have seen if C. Tolkien hadn't put them together. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

07-12-2002, 10:55 AM	#4
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Thunder entirely 'un-stolen', lmp. Intriguing suggestion, albeit one I will confess to dallying with myself. I came to a similar conclusion after Smith of Wooton Major but decided to drop the notion and take the story on its merits due to my belief in Tolkien's aversion to allegory. To state bluntly, avoiding the circuitous sesquipedalian lexicon of my normal speech (say that when you're tipsy), I don't think Tolkien would have made such a blunt statement. He could not have expected his son to miss the point...so I don't think he intended it to be read that way. IMO. I totally concur with you, burra, on Brian Herbert. A more horrible mismash of the original texts I cannot fathom. A great sadness, for the initial series was a source of great delight and insight for me. __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-12-2002, 01:36 PM	#5
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	Personally, I think Christopher Tolkien knew what his father wanted with Middle Earth (some of LOTR was sent to him in South Africa while JRR was writing it in England) and did a great job compiling his father's notebooks. btw Who's Brian Herbert? __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-12-2002, 01:45 PM	#6
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Son of Frank Herbert. Frank Herbert - author of Dune (6 novels) and collated short stories and scientific journals. Left behind a Tolkien-like body of work set in a science fiction environment. His son had the same task as Christopher Tolkien and did considerably worse. Still I would ask for a reply to the initial question(s). __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-12-2002, 10:37 AM	#2
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Not quite an answer but something to bring things to a boil, perhaps: my brother, also a great fan of Tolkien, posited this theory to me that Smith of Wooton Major may be allegorical in this sense: late in his life Tolkien knew that he would have to pass on his Star, his creative legendarium, to someone and that person would continue where he had left off, or at least enter the realm of Faerie in his place. In SOWM, the Smith did NOT give the Star to his son. Alf had him put it back in the box, and then Alf gave Smith the right to appoint the next bearer of the Star; Smith did NOT choose his son, but his wife's sister-son, a boy who was 'not an obvious choice', but there's something about him. Could it be, therefore, that JRRT was in this way saying that Christopher was not supposed to be the one to carry on, but someone else who would not be an obvious choice? No intent to steal your thunder, Stephanos, but it does seem appropo. lmp

07-12-2002, 01:46 PM	#7
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	You really don't want to know that, Aldagrim Proudfoot. The person that is much more interesting to look into is Frank Herbert. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

07-12-2002, 02:00 PM	#8
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Maybe it would have been better if Tolkien had first issued the volumes of HoMe and then edited the Silmarillion. Of course, this was impossible from a publishing standpoint! And I know that I have the benefit of hindsight in saying this. However, faced with the apparently huge pile of manuscripts, would it have been better if Christopher had taken at least a few more years to familiarize himself with the bulk of the material and then publish the Silm in 1980 or so? For example, if Christopher's aim was to chose the most recent version, he did not do that in regard to the Ainulindale which he himself admitted. Some of the writings Tolkien did in the last years of his life that are included in Morgoth's Ring or Unfinished Tales or Vinyar Tengwar (e.g., osanwe-kenta) do not appear in the Silm itself. These later speculations seem to go further than his earlier views, e.g. conversation between Andreth and Finrod regarding the fate of Arda at the end, relation of Man and Elves; way the world will be healed, mind-to-mind communication, etc. I like many of these later things and wish they had been included. I am no expert on this, and I'd appreciate hearing what someone else thinks. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

07-15-2002, 08:57 AM	#9
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Indeed, with much I concur. It was always my desire to have a definitive Silmarillion. I have an original hardback but sadly, when I contrast it with more recently published works and editions, it disappoints me. Insofar as the aforesaid, therefore, I agree that he should have taken longer - he had time - to create a more fully fledged Sil. However, I desire not to demean the fine efforts he put into the assimilation of many years of his father's abundance of material. It remains a fine attempt and I know I could have done no better; although I may well have given myself a longer time to undertake such an endeavour. So...one leg on this side of the fence...and t'other over there. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ] __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-16-2002, 07:33 AM	#11
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I guess I wish CT had written the Sil more like the bible. Yes, I've read that it already is much like it, but there's a difference. The bible contains broad sweeps and then narrows down to a tight focus on one individual, such as Joseph in Egypt, for example. I wish CT had done that more with the Sil. I wish he had given us the detailed version of Turin, instead of the somewhat truncated version contained in the Silm. Same goes for Luthien and Beren. These stories deserved full coverage in the Silm and I wish CT had given it to us. Yes, he did give us those writings in later editions, but I really think they belong in the Silm.

07-16-2002, 08:21 AM	#12
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	Personally, I think CT should have never have published the Silm, and only done the HoME series. The way I see it, all the differing versions of the same stories in HoME were JRRT's way of feeling out how he wanted to present ME's First Age. The fact that he never managed to finish leaves for a large margin of error in CT's (or anyone elses) synthesis of these versions (i.e. the Silm). Simply because no one can be certain that's how the story would have been presented in it's final form by JRRT, had he completed this task.

07-16-2002, 08:37 AM	#13
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Hmm, well that opinion should send a few ripples... Tarthang, in my humble opinion, JRRT had not 'finished' or 'final' version of anything. It wasn't the way he worked. A s I have said before, he was trying to create a mythology , not necessarily a straight-forward, linear and coherent story. To that end, he created and mutated many many storylines and told them with varying levels of detail. Put together, much of the work does not correlate exactly. However, he was desirous that people should read and enjoy his work, and so it fell upon CT, afetr his father's death, to create some sort of linear text for the major stories. JRRT had already constructed some of the way the book should be laid out; the frightful task of editing and assimilating the myriad stories was handled for the most part adeptly, IMO. I agree with lmp's points, about Turin Turambar especially, and that ties in with Child's comment about taking greater time on the first release. That said, I still think he should have published a version of the Silmarillion. I suppose I would merely have preferred a greater level of detail to have been included. [ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ] __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-16-2002, 08:39 AM	#14
Belin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world Posts: 330	Tarthang--I admit I've read very, very little of HoME, but I'm beginning to work on parts of it, and I must say that the Silm's existence has its virtues. It, unlike HoME, was put together to be read. It's able to present the events all together in a roughly story-like fashion. If you're reading for the story itself, having this makes a lot of sense. It's much more difficult to get a sense of ME chronological progression and the connections between things from the myriad drafts (particularly as some parts of the history seem to have interested the author more than others). Also (and related), having read it is making it easier for me to follow the texts that weren't ready to be read, and at least in the beginning here, exactly because it provided this map and story-like vision. Does this make any sense? --Belin Ibaimendi __________________ "I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum

07-19-2002, 10:40 AM	#15
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	JRR was a better writer than Christopher. I think Christopher is a good scholar and is trying to be faithful to his father's creation, but I want a good story too. Littlemanpoet makes an excellent point in how the Bible begins broad then narrows it's focus to the account of an individual. I've said in another thread that I believe the study of history needs more focus on individuals as well. My problem with HoME and somewhat even with the Silm is that they don't tell the stories of the characters as well as LOTR does. There are wonderful characters to work with but the story just doesn't make the impact for me. __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

08-27-2002, 08:53 AM	#16
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	My enfeebled but occasionally active grey matter was assaulted of late by a thought that belongs on this thread. With reference to the Narn I Hîn Húrin: although I wish CT had delayed and enlarged the publication and scope of the Silmarillion respectively, that is not what happened. However, in Unfinished Tales he missed out the passages that appeared already verbatim within his original Silmarillion. I understand that it would be inherently redundant to have reprinted the passages, yet part of me wishes it had been done so for I would love to read it as a whole, without flipping between books. __________________ And all the rest is literature

08-27-2002, 09:44 AM	#17
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Precisely. I agree. On the other hand, I really enjoy The Lays of Beleriand, a poetic retelling of the story of Luthien and Beren. But I don't think it would work to have the poetic version in the Silm., but the entire narratie ought to be there and the poetry in the HoME. Of course, that's already been said in this thread. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]