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06-05-2009, 02:56 PM | #1 |
Wight
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Did Gandalf make a mistake at Isengard ?
When Gandalf arrived at Isengard, much to the surprise of Merry and Pippin, he alerted Treebeard to the possibility that Wormtongue would be there soon.
And sure enough, Wormtongue turned up, was apprehended by Treebeard and was sent into Orthanc. But was that not a tactical mistake by Gandalf ? Wormtongue SAW Merry and Pippin. If he had alerted Saruman to their presence at the ruined gates, Saruman could then have informed Sauron via the Palantir and a Nazgul could have been sent to Isengard to pick up the 2 hobbits within hours. |
06-05-2009, 04:11 PM | #2 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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When Gandalf first arrived at Isengard to survey the scene and get news from Treebeard, he did not, in fact, know that Saruman was in possession of a palantķr yet. For that reason, I can't fault Gandalf for not ordering Treebeard to restrain Wormtongue upon his arrival and not allow him into Orthanc.
I can see the potential for harm there, but even if Saruman had tried to do what you suggest, I don't think Merry and Pippin would have been in any real danger at that point. Quote:
Even if Wormtongue had told Saruman of the hobbits' presence, as he no doubt did, and Saruman immediately contacted Sauron, I don't know if even a Nazgūl would have had time to get to Isengard before the arrival of Gandalf et al. Also, would the Ents have allowed a single Nazgūl to make off with Merry and Pippin?
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06-05-2009, 06:12 PM | #3 |
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I don't even think Saruman could have contacted Sauron, he got stuck in a no win situation. The entire time Saruman was looking out for himself and planning to betray Sauron. Sauron eventually figured this out, but the point is, as Gandalf tells Theoden et all after Pippin looked in the palantir, Saruman got his caught in a vice, and his charade was up.
The "good" side knew Saruman was a liar, Sauron became aware of his intentions, and we see when Pippin uses the palantir Sauron assumes he is Saruman's servant and asks Pippin why his master had neglected to report in a while. Saruman had no escape, Isengard was destroyed, his power in the Council and in the Order of the Istari was gone, he was trapped in his tower, with no power to hand Merry and Pippin into Sauron whether he told Sauron or not. Gandalf speculates that Saruman does have the power, while in Orthanc, to maybe trap one of the Nazgul, but other than that he's got nothing. Saruman's choices were be imprisoned in Orthanc and take a chance with the good guys who would spare his life, or let Sauron know that he was virtually powerless. Isengard was lost, even if he did tell Sauron he had two hobbits, Saruman was imprisoned in a tower, he couldn't hand them over to Sauron, and facing Sauron (even when he did have his power!) was the last thing Saruman wanted. Saruman was obviously bitter and spat right back in Gandalf's face, but they weren't going to kill him, it was better to be imprisoned by Gandalf et the "softies," then to let Sauron know he was powerless and had nothing to offer.
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06-06-2009, 09:45 AM | #4 |
Guard of the Citadel
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Boromir makes a good point of why he probably wouldn't have done in the first place, but as already stated even if he did inform him, there is no way a Nazgūl could do anything about it.
Proof? The Nazgūl who flew over the camp on Dol Baran was not able do to anything. Now, indeed it did not directly respond to Pippin talking to Sauron through the palantir, the journey was too long and he had appeared immediately. He was actually sent to check on Saruman, but, even as its master detected Pippin and it was right above him it could not do anything about it. So I doubt it could had done anything else sometime earlier.
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06-06-2009, 01:16 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Inziladun makes a good point, that Gandalf was not aware of Saruman's possession of a palantir until after it had been flung at him (contrary to what was shown in Jackson's version of the story). Moreover, when Pippin looked into the palantir, Sauron's first response was to think that it was Saruman reporting, which, for some reason, he had not done in some time. "So you have come back. Why have you neglected to report for so long?" From that reaction, I would hazard to guess that Saruman was no longer inclined to tell Sauron anything, unless it could save his skin, and especially not if he felt he might be able to use the information first, to his own advantage.
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06-06-2009, 03:12 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
The Orthanc-stone, after all, had always been at Isengard. Unlike the stones of Arnor, it was never moved due to enemy advances, and unlike Osgiliath and Minas Ithil, Orthanc was never taken by an enemy army--though, if my memory serves (and it IS hazy), the garrison did become strongly Dunlendish at some point, and resist Rohirric influence. However, assuming that my memory IS right, then it also says that this was a huge part of the deliberative reasoning in Saruman receiving guardianship of Orthanc from the Stewards--Gondor wanted to know the palantķr was safe in the hands of a wizard. Granted, I doubt that the palantķr was present much in Gandalf's thoughts--insofar as he knew, they weren't being used. It is hugely clear that the revelation of Grķma chucking the stone at him was of something he'd not known before... BUT... in the interests of pedantry, it seems fair to suggest Gandalf should have known it was there, even if he hadn't made the connection.
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06-06-2009, 03:50 PM | #7 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
Quote:
Surely, if Gandalf had been fully aware of the Orthanc-stone, it would not have taken Pippin's experience on Dol Baren for him to recognize what the Stone was. Unlike Saruman, Gandalf's mind did not have a special affinity for artifacts of power, and I can see how the palantķri would have eluded his attention. It certainly appears to me that the event on Dol Baren took him completely by surprise.
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06-07-2009, 08:15 AM | #8 |
Loremaster of Annśminas
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And how would a Nazgul have managed to seize a hobbit guarded by Ents, anyway?
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06-08-2009, 11:11 AM | #9 | |
Wight
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Quote:
"Saruman had no doubt from his investigations gained a special knowledge of the Stones, things that would attract his attention, and had become convinced that the Orthanc-stone was still intact in its tower. He acquired the keys of Orthanc, nominally as warden of the tower and lieutenant of the Stewards of Gondor. At that time the matter of the Orthanc-stone would hardly concern the White Council. Only Saruman, having gained the favour of the Stewards, had yet made sufficient study of the records of Gondor to perceive the interest of the palantķri and the possible uses of those that survived; but of this he said nothing to his colleagues." (from Unfinished Tales) So, in Tolkien's own words, only Saruman had much interest in, or knowledge of, the Stones and he never mentioned them to other members of the White Council. In other words: Gandalf probably did not know about the Orthanc-stone. |
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06-08-2009, 11:45 AM | #10 |
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06-08-2009, 02:11 PM | #11 |
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I think even the Nazgul fear the Ents, they would not venture towards Isengard if they were aware of the Ents there.
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06-09-2009, 08:37 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
And that assumes that Grima even was concerned with anything other than the political disaster at Edoras and Theoden's riding to war, as well as the destruction of Isengard. Shock upon shock: Gandalf not dead, Isildur's Heir revealed- what matter small rag-tag and bob-tail? Heck, was Wormtongue even in the loop regarding Halflings and their significance? He was merely Saruman's mole in Meduseld with a Rohan portfolio; Ring-related matters were not within his ambit of need-to-know. And why would Saruman have done anything of the sort? "Sauron, sir! Halflings right here! Maybe one has the Ring!" Saruman was not about to tell Sauron anything Ring-related if he could possibly help it. He was playing a double game right up to then end.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
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06-09-2009, 08:45 AM | #13 | |
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Quote:
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
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06-09-2009, 06:11 PM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Except for the one in Elostirion, if I recall correctly. Though that one was not useful for anything but looking to the West, also IIRC. I think my brain is still post-vacation addled....
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