The Recapture of north-east Beleriand

[Macalaure]

I'm referring to the recapture of Beleriand by Maedhros prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. In the Silmarillion we get the clear impression that this was a fault, maybe the fault.

Do you agree?

What if he didn't? Would he have been able to hide his Union before Morgoth until it was too late for the Dark Lord to react?
I'm not sure about that.
To coordinate the attack there had to be great numbers of messengers coming from and going to Himring. With Maglor's Gap open to Morgoth, it is not unprobable, that one of them would have been captured. The smithies of Nogrod and Belegost were busy, but somehow those weapons had to be brought to Himring - across unguarded land. Maybe they would not have been ambushed, but wouldn't the news itself attract Morgoth's attention that something might be up? And in the end, it is simply unthinkable to me that he could have mustered his huge army without being espied. I don't think that he could have done it on Himring itself, for space reasons. The army had to gather behind the Gap before the march.

I agree with J.R.R. Tolkien that freeing Dorthonion was unnecessary, but I think if Maedhros didn't close the Gap of Maglor, his plans would have become known to Morgoth nevertheless.

[A_Brandybuck]

Besides the possibility, that Morgoth could have noticed the new upcoming union between the Elves of Beleriand, if Maedhros have hidden his strength and have let the Gap open, through the traffic of the messengers, there is another detail.
I am sure that Ulfang and his Easterlings had reported the plans to their secret Master. I cannot imagine, that the Easterlings in the service of Morgoth had not alarmed Angband.
They were greedy for the wealthy lands of Beleriand and would not miss out such a chance to proof their loyality to Morgoth.

Anyway the treachery of Ulfang and his people was the deciding factor of the battle and without it, Morgoth had not won the battle.

[Macalaure]

I see your point, but I didn't mention it because it is not affected by whether Maedhros recaptured his March or not.
However, it seems to me, that Tolkien estimated his fault quite high. Only after he tried his strength did Morgoth send out his spies. The Easterlings that already served him must have told him before, but for some reason their early reports didn't seem to bother him.

Anyway the treachery of Ulfang and his people was the deciding factor of the battle and without it, Morgoth had not won the battle.

I'm not so sure about this. Morgoth was strong, and maybe would have won even without their help.

But that is an interesting topic as well:
What were the factors of the great defeat?
What problems could have been absorbed by the Union, which were decisive.

I think the main factor was, again, our beloved Oath...
Without it, no misdeeds of Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond
Without their misdeeds, Nargothrond maybe (if Finrod was still alive: definitely) would have joined.
Without the oath, there would have been no haughty words towards Thingol, and maybe even he would have joined.
With all available forces united, I'm quite optimistic.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Morgoth was strong, and maybe would have won even without their help.

Blaaasphemy! Tolkien is quite clear on this point:

"Yet neither by Wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men"

The "his end" in question being the victory of the Nirnaeth.

Think about it. It was the most catastrophic defeat in the history of Arda and yet there are still so many moments associated with it of pride, valour and resistance. And in the end such things would be enough of a victory, insubstantial though it appeared at the time.

Had Ulfang's and Uldor's men been as steadfast as the loyal Easterlings under the sons of Bor, in my opinion Morgoth's army would have been destroyed and the Siege of Angband renewed, as before the Bragollach.

[Macalaure]

Eeek!
Must have missed that one for some reason.

Though I wonder how anybody could have actually known this (and live to tell). Elves wrote the Silmarillion, and who of them knew how much force Morgoth still had hidden in Angband. They say Angband was empty then, but who could really tell? I'm suspicious the author of this bit only maintains a silent (and surely understandable) grudge for those Men. But of course this is just speculation without any reason.
Enough of this blasphemy!

[Aiwendil]

Elves wrote the Silmarillion, and who of them knew how much force Morgoth still had hidden in Angband.

Actually, Tolkien's latest thought was that Numenoreans wrote it - which only makes it seem less likely, of course, that the author of this statement knew for sure that Angband had been emptied.

But we come again to the whole strange issue of the historical "accuracy" of the Silmarillion. This is an interesting topic and one that has been discussed elsewhere. In the You say 'Faeries' and I say 'Fairies' thread, I said:

There's also the question of what it means to wonder whether a fictional story is "true" - what we mean to ask, of course, is not whether it's literally true but whether it's true or false within a supposed fictional world. But what defines that world if not the narrative whose veracity we're doubting?

I think this is relevant here as well. What do we mean when we doubt the "truth" of what the narrator reports? Obviously, we don't believe that there really was a Nirnaeth Arnoediad which the narrator is inaccurately reporting.

Sorry if this takes the thread a bit off topic, but I think it's an interesting point to consider.

[Anguirel]

Ah, Aiwendil, you make an incisive point but one that I lack the philosophy to field properly.

I am a flawed and partial reader, and I accept what is most satisfying to me, regardless of veracity of accounts.

It's interesting to ponder, Macalaure, that, had Tolkien, in a hypothetical Letter #38000, clearly said "Without the treachery of Men, Maedhros would have won the Fifth Battle", or the reverse, you might be inclined to accept it; but here in a (fairly solidly) canonical passage you are able to claim that the information can be dismissed as mere Elf focalisation.

So in this case a bit of bleak factual marginalia apparently has more power than a dramatically powerful and moving tragic passage. Peculiar. Some would react by dismissing the letter too, as an author imposing rights of arbitration he does not have. I have sympathy for that view; by allowing his work to be read an author submits its interpretation into the hands of his readers. But it doesn't get us very far, producing an answer of "this might, or might not be the case."

Since I admire the portrayal of Maedhros' Union, therefore, I'm going to accept this information as being valid. Another might prefer to try and dismiss it.

As for the reasons which undermined the Union, and your citing of the Oath and poor innocent Celegorm and Curufin-nonsense! It was all the fault of those dratted love birds Beren and Luthien who thoroughly messed up Nargothrond-Himring-Doriath diplomatic relations...

[Macalaure]

Since I admire the portrayal of Maedhros' Union, therefore, I'm going to accept this information as being valid.

And so do I.
The passage you quoted above simply slipped from my mind and the speculation that followed in my last post was not meant that seriously...

Though I still wonder the more why Tolkien regarded Maedhros' actions as so wrong, when they wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[Formendacil]

Perhaps it's a fault of my aging memory... and the lack of a Silmarillion copy close at hand, but does anyone here recall if it is said that the treachery of Ulfang began BEFORE or AFTER Maedhros retook the Gap (sidenote... the Gap of Rohan is clearly not the only franchise of the chain in Middle-Earth).

If Ulfang and the others went over to Morgoth AFTER Maedhros retook the Gap, ie. after Morgoth was alerted to what Maedhros is up to, then it is possible to assume that he did NOT, in fact, know Maedhros' plans, in which case Macalaure is probably correct in stating that retaking the Gap was probably a fatal error.

On the other hand, if Ulfang and his crew had already betrayed Maedhros, then we're left with the "well Ulfang could have told him anyway".

[Macalaure]

Formendacil, I didn't say it was a fatal error, I wonder why Tolkien does.

Here's the passage from the Silmarillion:

But Maedhros made trial of his strength too soon, ere his plans were fullwrought; and [...] Morgoth was warned of the uprising of the Eldar and the Elf-friends, and took counsel against them. Many spies and workers of treason he sent forth among them, as he was better able now to do, for the faithless Men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of the sons of Feanor.

So Ulfang was already in league with Morgoth. Either he had not told Morgoth until then, or Morgoth didn't listen/believe him.

Which makes me think:
If Nargothrond and Doriath were in the Union, would Maedhros have asked the Easterlings to join at all?

[Anguirel]

I think he would have, yes. Any help against Morgoth was welcome, and the Sons of Feanor were tolerant and admiring in general of any men who fought Orcs.

One crucial thing to remember is that recruiting the Easterlings was by every code of morality, honour, and tolerance the just and right thing to do; and that it was rewarded by the loyalty of Bor's sons, at least, who are too often forgotten-Easterlings as heroic as any of the Edain-"...Ulwarth and Ulfast were slain by the sons of Bor, ere they themselves were slain."

"Ere they themselves were slain." Presumably their people with them. Think of the sacrifice that entails. They didn't have beautiful names or countenances, but they fell as valiantly as Hurin's folk at the Fen of Serech. They ought to be remembered with more honour. Who knows; perhaps even some of Uldor's men resisted their lord's treachery.

Even with hindsight, the acceptance of Easterling aid was a noble and correct act. And had it been rejected, defeat would have been equally inevitable. The numbers the Swarthy Men lent to the Union were surely vital.

[Macalaure]

I think he would have, yes.

I think so, too. There was a bond between Fëanor's Sons and the Easterlings even before the Union was in planning. And they proved faithful until then.

And had it been rejected, defeat would have been equally inevitable.

Here I'm not so sure. I don't want to spoil the rememberance of the faithful Easterlings, but at least after the new men from the east arrived, they were severely outnumbered. Below the line there were more of them on Morgoth's side than on Maedhros'. Of course, hadn't Maedhros asked them, maybe they still would have fought on Morgoth's side.

Getting back to the blasphemy: A few lines before "Yet neither by wolf..." Tolkien writes: "Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful."
Some have said? Might have won? Maybe it's not that certain at all.