Valinor or Eresea? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morgoth Bauglir · 08-19-2002, 10:01 PM

Whenever it talks about the elves returning to Aman, they always say that they are going to Tol Eresea. My question is whether they are allowed into Valmar, or must they stay in Tol Eresea secluded from their brethren?

oh, if u do not know what im talking about, i will give u quotes later, but right now its very late.

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: Morgoth Bauglir ]

Eol · 08-19-2002, 10:16 PM

Well This is what I found: " The Tol Eressea 'The lonely Isle' on which the Vanyar and the Noldor and afterwards the Teleri were drawn across the ocean by Ulmo, and which was at last rooted in the Bay of Eldamar near the coasts of Aman." Silmarillion Index p351

As to your question, it would be nice to have your quote to derive an anwser from. I am supposing that since it is an isle along the Aman, then they may have rights to Valmar. Of course this is based on assumtion and my knowledge.

Maédhros · 08-21-2002, 09:59 AM

I would say that they could pass first to Tol Eressëa, but the elves could go into Valinor I suppose. I don't have a quote right now to support this. I think that in HOME we have Finrod walikng with Amarië in Valinor, so I would that they could go to Valinor.

littlemanpoet · 08-21-2002, 10:16 AM

My understanding is that except for the Doom of the House of Feanor, and of the Noldor as they are affected by it, the call of the Valar to the First Children of Iluvatar is still in effect. Legolas, for example, may stop at Tol Eressea, but may continue on to join the Vanyar and the Noldor who had never left. I don't have quotes to support this, but I'm pretty sure this is what the texts say.

Feanaro · 08-21-2002, 01:37 PM

Tol Eressea is also slightly closer to Middle-earth than Valinor. It would make sense to stop and rest there before continuing on towards Aman.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

***Mithadan*** · 08-21-2002, 01:58 PM

This is an issue that saw significant change as Tolkien's works evolved. His earliest conception (Lost Tales and early Silmarillion drafts) seems to be that Elves who rejected the initial summons of the Valar could not pass into the West at all, though the forgive Noldor could return to Tol Eressea but were barred from Valinor.

A later conception is that all Elves could pass into the West but the rebellious Noldor could only go as far as Tol Eressea.

The published Silmarillion suggests that the Noldor could dwell on Tol Eressea "from whence they might come even to Valinor" (quote is from memory) hinting that they could visit but not live there. I have not checked HoME to see if there is a similar passage in the later versions of the draft Sil.

08-19-2002, 10:01 PM	#1
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	Valinor or Eresea? Whenever it talks about the elves returning to Aman, they always say that they are going to Tol Eresea. My question is whether they are allowed into Valmar, or must they stay in Tol Eresea secluded from their brethren? oh, if u do not know what im talking about, i will give u quotes later, but right now its very late. [ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: Morgoth Bauglir ]

08-19-2002, 10:16 PM	#2
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	Well This is what I found: " The Tol Eressea 'The lonely Isle' on which the Vanyar and the Noldor and afterwards the Teleri were drawn across the ocean by Ulmo, and which was at last rooted in the Bay of Eldamar near the coasts of Aman." Silmarillion Index p351 As to your question, it would be nice to have your quote to derive an anwser from. I am supposing that since it is an isle along the Aman, then they may have rights to Valmar. Of course this is based on assumtion and my knowledge. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

08-21-2002, 09:59 AM	#3
Maédhros The Kinslayer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 658	I would say that they could pass first to Tol Eressëa, but the elves could go into Valinor I suppose. I don't have a quote right now to support this. I think that in HOME we have Finrod walikng with Amarië in Valinor, so I would that they could go to Valinor. __________________ "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."

08-21-2002, 01:37 PM	#5
Feanaro Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 55	Tol Eressea is also slightly closer to Middle-earth than Valinor. It would make sense to stop and rest there before continuing on towards Aman. [ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ] __________________ 'See half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.' -Feanor, threatening Fingolfin with his sword. ~Moderator of the Mordor RPG.~

08-21-2002, 01:58 PM	#6
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,329	This is an issue that saw significant change as Tolkien's works evolved. His earliest conception (Lost Tales and early Silmarillion drafts) seems to be that Elves who rejected the initial summons of the Valar could not pass into the West at all, though the forgive Noldor could return to Tol Eressea but were barred from Valinor. A later conception is that all Elves could pass into the West but the rebellious Noldor could only go as far as Tol Eressea. The published Silmarillion suggests that the Noldor could dwell on Tol Eressea "from whence they might come even to Valinor" (quote is from memory) hinting that they could visit but not live there. I have not checked HoME to see if there is a similar passage in the later versions of the draft Sil. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

08-21-2002, 10:16 AM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	My understanding is that except for the Doom of the House of Feanor, and of the Noldor as they are affected by it, the call of the Valar to the First Children of Iluvatar is still in effect. Legolas, for example, may stop at Tol Eressea, but may continue on to join the Vanyar and the Noldor who had never left. I don't have quotes to support this, but I'm pretty sure this is what the texts say.