Fate of Amandil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Perky Ent · 02-27-2004, 12:13 AM

I ran a search on the topic and i didn't see anything, so correct me if i'm wrong, but i have reached a pondering thought. Did Amandil ever reach Valinor? If he did, did they ignore his request and sunk Númenorë anyway? Although his fate doesn't matter in the big picture, i'm sure Elendil would like to know where his father is! Could he reside in Valinor? Doubt it, but it's still a question. I guess it all depends on what the Valar think. In my opinion, they would've listened to what he said, ignored him, and sent him on his way to Middle Earth. Mabey the valar were in a bad mood and killed him?

Mabey they were in a good mood and let him stay. It doesn't seem like they'd let him stay though. Would the valar beleive his attempt to save his kingdom? Or would they just think he was trying to save his skin? This idea has been festering in my mind for quite some time now, and i need a voice of reason. So all you barrow-downers out there, please shead some light on the situation, because i am in great need of any ideas. (Actually I'm not, but nevertheless, i'd like to know what you think!)

Numenorean · 02-27-2004, 04:07 AM

Perky, I would hazard a guess that Amandil did indeed arrive at Valinor and with his dieing breath pleaded mercy for the Faithful and for the vain folly of the King and his people.

I feel the Valar must have granted mercy of sorts for the Faithful, for the armadas of Elendil, Isildur and Anarion were born uncannily aloft to safety and Middle Earth, on the same dark tidal waves that swamped Númenorë before their eyes.

Eorl of Rohan · 02-27-2004, 06:59 AM

It is my belief that he perished in the sea. that is certainly what the author leads us to believe with hints.

But the matter is one of the many empty points in the world of Tolkien that we can fill up with our imagination. Like the fate of Earendil's sons, which I believe have starved to death.

The Perky Ent · 02-27-2004, 10:15 AM

Umm...i must be forgetting something, but aren't Earendil's sons Elrond and Elros? Elros died after an old age and Elrong is currently living in Valinor until the end of his days, which won't come!

NightKnight · 02-27-2004, 10:20 AM

Eorl, I think you mean Dior's sons, Elured and Elurin.

As for Amandil, I don't think he reached Valinor. Just my personal opinion, though.

Firefoot · 02-27-2004, 02:45 PM

I don't think Amandil reached Valinor either. Perhaps the Valar, while they couldn't let him come to Valinor, saw him coming and understood his purpose and so they let Elendil and his sons etc get out of Numenor. That is my theory.

Eorl of Rohan · 02-28-2004, 03:09 AM

Yes,. Dior's sons. ^^ I think I am losing my memory.

Finwe · 02-28-2004, 10:59 AM

Amandil didn't necessarily have to reach Valinor for the fleets of Elendil and his sons to be saved. They were already members of the Faithful, and had always served the Valar. They were going to be saved anyway.

Earendilyon · 02-28-2004, 01:18 PM

I think there are two posibilities to his fate:
1. he reached the Enchanted Isles and is sleeping on one of the beaches till the End of Time
2. he got shipwrecked or sunk or something like that and drowned

I think that no Man reached Valinor in the period between Earendil and the end of the TA, when Bilbo and Frodo arrived. And even these two (and later also Sam) got no further than Tol Eressëa.

The Perky Ent · 02-28-2004, 04:00 PM

Question, why would he be sleeping on the shores forever? And i don't think they'd kill him...unless they were in a bad mood. This would be a weird site: Amandil is sleeping on the shores. Ar-Parazon and his armada sail up twords him. Once Amandil's in sight, everyone jumps out of their ships and start swimming twords the shore. BOOM! No, somehow i don't think Amandil is in an eternal sleep.

symestreem · 02-28-2004, 04:20 PM

'It is said that Amandil set sail in a small ship at night, and steered first eastward, and then went about and passed into the west. And he took with him three servants, dear to his heart, and never again were they heard of by word or sign in this world, nor is there any tale or guess of their fate. Men could not a second time be saved by any such embassy, and for the treason of Numenor there was no easy absolving.'
I believe Amandil was too great a mariner to be lost at sea. He probably was caught in one of the guarding isles; Earendil was the only sailor to ever reach Valinor, and this was because he had the Silmaril with him. I believe in one of the HoME there is a fragment of a tale of a mariner who landed on the isle of the elves and drank their wine, becoming immortal. I don't remember if it was in the Lays of Beleriand, Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales, or where. However, this was written when Tolkien intended to morph the history of Middle-earth into the history of Earth.
Perky, this quote comes from the hiding of Valinor: "And in the twilight a great weariness came upon mariners and a loathing of the sea; but all that ever set foot upon the islands were there entrapped,and slept until the Change of the World."
Rip Van Winkle, anyone?

willkill4food · 02-28-2004, 06:20 PM

But we are forgetting about the 3rd possibility, that it was Eru, not the Valar that harkened to Amandil's prayers and saved the faithful from the downfall of numenor, and I think this one is more likely. Because I always somehow got the picture that the Valar had forsaken Middle-Earth after the War of Wrath, for Sauron's rise was the fault of the elves and men in ME. But Eru on the other hand would have a reason to save the faithful, so that they could defeat Sauron the Valar really cared about defeating Sauron...

-willkill

Firefoot · 02-28-2004, 08:00 PM

I think willkill has a good point, that maybe Eru saved the Faithful. That makes a lot of sense.

Amandil sleeping until the end of days makes sense too. I don't think that he would have shipwrecked.

Symestreem, you're talking about Eriol in the Book of Lost Tales. I think Tolkien abandoned all that though.

Short and Sweet. And I think I just completely changed my opinion.

02-27-2004, 12:13 AM	#1
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Fate of Amandil I ran a search on the topic and i didn't see anything, so correct me if i'm wrong, but i have reached a pondering thought. Did Amandil ever reach Valinor? If he did, did they ignore his request and sunk Númenorë anyway? Although his fate doesn't matter in the big picture, i'm sure Elendil would like to know where his father is! Could he reside in Valinor? Doubt it, but it's still a question. I guess it all depends on what the Valar think. In my opinion, they would've listened to what he said, ignored him, and sent him on his way to Middle Earth. Mabey the valar were in a bad mood and killed him? Mabey they were in a good mood and let him stay. It doesn't seem like they'd let him stay though. Would the valar beleive his attempt to save his kingdom? Or would they just think he was trying to save his skin? This idea has been festering in my mind for quite some time now, and i need a voice of reason. So all you barrow-downers out there, please shead some light on the situation, because i am in great need of any ideas. (Actually I'm not, but nevertheless, i'd like to know what you think!) __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

02-27-2004, 04:07 AM	#2
Numenorean Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bay of Eldanna Posts: 94	Perky, I would hazard a guess that Amandil did indeed arrive at Valinor and with his dieing breath pleaded mercy for the Faithful and for the vain folly of the King and his people. I feel the Valar must have granted mercy of sorts for the Faithful, for the armadas of Elendil, Isildur and Anarion were born uncannily aloft to safety and Middle Earth, on the same dark tidal waves that swamped Númenorë before their eyes. __________________ '…Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands, and thence at times the Firstborn still would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset…'

02-27-2004, 06:59 AM	#3
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	It is my belief that he perished in the sea. that is certainly what the author leads us to believe with hints. But the matter is one of the many empty points in the world of Tolkien that we can fill up with our imagination. Like the fate of Earendil's sons, which I believe have starved to death. __________________ There is no signature here.

02-27-2004, 10:15 AM	#4
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Umm...i must be forgetting something, but aren't Earendil's sons Elrond and Elros? Elros died after an old age and Elrong is currently living in Valinor until the end of his days, which won't come! __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

02-27-2004, 10:20 AM	#5
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	Eorl, I think you mean Dior's sons, Elured and Elurin. As for Amandil, I don't think he reached Valinor. Just my personal opinion, though. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

02-27-2004, 02:45 PM	#6
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	I don't think Amandil reached Valinor either. Perhaps the Valar, while they couldn't let him come to Valinor, saw him coming and understood his purpose and so they let Elendil and his sons etc get out of Numenor. That is my theory.

02-28-2004, 03:09 AM	#7
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	Yes,. Dior's sons. ^^ I think I am losing my memory. __________________ There is no signature here.

02-28-2004, 10:59 AM	#8
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Amandil didn't necessarily have to reach Valinor for the fleets of Elendil and his sons to be saved. They were already members of the Faithful, and had always served the Valar. They were going to be saved anyway. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-28-2004, 01:18 PM	#9
Earendilyon Wight Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 166	I think there are two posibilities to his fate: 1. he reached the Enchanted Isles and is sleeping on one of the beaches till the End of Time 2. he got shipwrecked or sunk or something like that and drowned I think that no Man reached Valinor in the period between Earendil and the end of the TA, when Bilbo and Frodo arrived. And even these two (and later also Sam) got no further than Tol Eressëa. __________________ "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia.

02-28-2004, 04:00 PM	#10
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Question, why would he be sleeping on the shores forever? And i don't think they'd kill him...unless they were in a bad mood. This would be a weird site: Amandil is sleeping on the shores. Ar-Parazon and his armada sail up twords him. Once Amandil's in sight, everyone jumps out of their ships and start swimming twords the shore. BOOM! No, somehow i don't think Amandil is in an eternal sleep. __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

02-28-2004, 04:20 PM	#11
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	'It is said that Amandil set sail in a small ship at night, and steered first eastward, and then went about and passed into the west. And he took with him three servants, dear to his heart, and never again were they heard of by word or sign in this world, nor is there any tale or guess of their fate. Men could not a second time be saved by any such embassy, and for the treason of Numenor there was no easy absolving.' I believe Amandil was too great a mariner to be lost at sea. He probably was caught in one of the guarding isles; Earendil was the only sailor to ever reach Valinor, and this was because he had the Silmaril with him. I believe in one of the HoME there is a fragment of a tale of a mariner who landed on the isle of the elves and drank their wine, becoming immortal. I don't remember if it was in the Lays of Beleriand, Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales, or where. However, this was written when Tolkien intended to morph the history of Middle-earth into the history of Earth. Perky, this quote comes from the hiding of Valinor: "And in the twilight a great weariness came upon mariners and a loathing of the sea; but all that ever set foot upon the islands were there entrapped,and slept until the Change of the World." Rip Van Winkle, anyone?

02-28-2004, 06:20 PM	#12
willkill4food Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 44	But we are forgetting about the 3rd possibility, that it was Eru, not the Valar that harkened to Amandil's prayers and saved the faithful from the downfall of numenor, and I think this one is more likely. Because I always somehow got the picture that the Valar had forsaken Middle-Earth after the War of Wrath, for Sauron's rise was the fault of the elves and men in ME. But Eru on the other hand would have a reason to save the faithful, so that they could defeat Sauron the Valar really cared about defeating Sauron... -willkill __________________ Gil-galad was an Elven-king. Of him the harpers sadly sing...

02-28-2004, 08:00 PM	#13
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	I think willkill has a good point, that maybe Eru saved the Faithful. That makes a lot of sense. Amandil sleeping until the end of days makes sense too. I don't think that he would have shipwrecked. Symestreem, you're talking about Eriol in the Book of Lost Tales. I think Tolkien abandoned all that though. Short and Sweet. And I think I just completely changed my opinion.