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05-12-2018, 03:53 PM | #1 | |
King's Writer
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Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
This is the first draft of the chapter Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in the part The Black Years.
Since in this part I found it very difficult to nominate a basic text, all snippets I used are marked by an editing mark with source information. The markings are: BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part. CGC-SL-zz for Concerning Galadriel and Celebron, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert. Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
BY-HL-08: That title might not be perfect for what is to follow, but it is the one Tolkien gave to what I used as the main source, and thus be necessity the text is a bit focused on the pair. CGC-SL-01: I take up the text where I left it in the chapter The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves CGC-SL-02, CGC-SL-03, CGC-SL-09, CGC-SL-10, CGC-SL-13, CGC-SL-14, CGC-SL-17, CGC-SL-18, CGC-SL-019: A Comment of Christopher Tolkien removed. CGC-SL-04: This 3 paragraphs from Of the Rings of Power where even referred to by Christopher Tolkien as a fuller description of how Sauron cozened the Noldor of Eregion. CGC-SL-05: Back to Concerning Galadirel and Celeborn CGC-SL-06: Even so this note is not given as quote, we should include the information. CGC-SL-07: This part of the note is to much an editorial speak as to keep it. CGC-SL-08: I am not sure if this quotation marks should be removed. Are they separating Christopher Tolkiens text from quote of the original text of his father or were they as others in this not marking a kind of ‘meaning’ for the elvish word? CGC-SL-11: A footnote with a comment of Christopher Tolkien removed. CGC-SL-12: Here the quotation marks have to go, since they separate a quote from JRR Tolkiens original text from the reconstruction of Christopher. CGC-SL-15: Here I expact that ArcusCalion will disagree with my treatment of the text. I lifted a kind of comment of Christopher into the main text, making it a comment of the supposed in legend author or editor. CGC-SL-16: Equally if we take the passage under CGC-SL-015 we should include this note. And I think this is the right place for it. CGC-SL-20: If this footnote of Christopher should be keep as a footnote or not might be discussed, but since the text is originally JRR Tolkiens we do not have the authorial problem that we faced with the famous Yavanna as a tree footnote. CGC-SL-21: Since Amroth is in our version not the son of Galadriel, she should not take him with her on this journey (I would rather expect that she could meet him in Lórinand). This passage shows as well, that Celebrian was already born, either near lake Nenuial or in Eregion. I would also like to discuss here the idea of gondowe to mention Galadriels earlier visits in the course of her journey in the first age. I agree that the Nandor in the vale of Anduin were the most probable destination of that journey, but we do not have any prove. We have a good hint, that she crossed Hitheaglir, and therefore we included that in the earlier chapter. But in the case of an earlier visit to Lórien, I would rather give the reader the freeness to combine that form himself. Respectfully Findegil |
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05-13-2018, 11:01 AM | #2 | |
Quentingolmo
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Firstly, In my version of the story, I placed the second part of the Elessar text at the very beginning of this chapter. This may not be the best place for it, but there are few other places it can go. The only other chapter where we could place it is in Of the Rings of Power but this may be difficult, considering that most of the chapter is consumed with the war in Eriador. Thus, I placed it here at the beginning. Did you place it elsewhere Fin?
CGC-SL-08: I would remove the quotations. They are certainly not describing the meaning of the word, so there is no reason to keep them. CGC-SL-15: You are correct, I disagree wholeheartedly. This is CT speculating about the motivations of a character based on his father's text, and we have no right to assign his personal speculations to our in-universe narrator. I would remove the comment entirely. CGC-SL-18: I Actually edited this a bit differently, to keep the name Annatar: Quote:
CGC-SL-20: I like this footnote, I think it is worth keeping. CGC-SL-21: I agree about the Amroth deletion, but II am confused about your statement about telling more of her journeys. Why do we need to? Where is this information coming from? Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-14-2018 at 02:57 PM. |
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05-14-2018, 12:25 PM | #3 | |
King's Writer
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About the Elessar: If this second tale about the Elessar is to be taken up at all, then the place for it is exactly where you point it to be. So even if I have some doubt about taking it up at all, I would like to see your editing it into the text and edits you made in the text. I think I have to re-read our discussion in the Earendil chapter, to remember what we said their about the two versions and specially about the ‘first’ Elessar and Enerdhil.
CGC-SL-15: Okay we will remove commenting the part of the text. But I think we agree to keep the footnote under CGC-SL-16 to CGC-SL-19. CGC-SL-18: I don’t feel that the addition of Anatar here as absolutely necessary, but I am okay with it. CGC-SL-21: My remark was based on gondowe’s posting in the thread about Galadriel and Celeborn: Quote:
Howsoever I think we agree that no such remark as gondowe wished to include is wanted in our version. Respectfully Findegil |
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05-14-2018, 03:04 PM | #4 | |
Quentingolmo
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Here is how I edited the Elessar, which I think we should give, since we have no reason to leave it out. We all agreed that the version with Olorin was not correct, and that the version of Celebrimbor was to be taken up. Therefore I have done so with some minor edits:
Quote:
CGC-SL-00.6: At this point in the narrative she is already living there. CGC-SL-00.7: Since in our version Celebrimbor is not an elf of Gondolin, this must be removed. CGC-SL-00.8: At this point Galadriel is living in Eregion, as it must be. When she is living in Lorien, Celebrimbor is dead or estranged from her, so it cannot be at that time. Therefore I changed forest to Eregion, since that is where she was dwelling. CGC-SL-15: I agree to all those footnotes, yes. CGC-SL-21: I think that it is best to leave it ambiguous, since we do not need to invent narratives to explain things when we can simply leave it up to the deduction of the reader. |
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05-15-2018, 07:42 AM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Hmm, for me, a major factor regarding the Elessar Text is that it presents two internal variations, neither of which is known to be correct by anyone in Middle-earth. Again, I'm not wholly familiar with the guidelines here, but whatever they are, this seems to me to be a step beyond. To my mind it would be similar to saying the form Galadhriel is "incorrect" and therefore should not be represented anywhere in your text...
... when the idea is obviously that it is "incorrect" in some sense, but from an internal perspective it's easily acceptable, with internal reasons given. In my opinion these sort of obscurities and purposed variations represent Tolkien's art of world-building -- with the natural confusions or variations that (he thinks) might arise. I think they were important to him. For me they are the added "pepper" to the soup of consistency, echoing certain real world "textual scenarios", so to speak. |
05-15-2018, 11:13 PM | #6 | |
King's Writer
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Posted by ArcusCalion:
Quote:
However we might decide on this, working with the integration of the Elessar text I found some other nice variants for the edit of this chapter. So let’s first clear the Elessar issue and then discuss here farther. I fully agree to Galins argument. Respectfully Findegil |
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05-23-2018, 04:23 PM | #7 |
Quentingolmo
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I would love to hear the alternate ideas you have for including the alternate versions.
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05-28-2018, 06:03 PM | #8 | |
King's Writer
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Okay, as the discussion about the Elessar in the thread ‘Celebrimbor’ has made some success. I will post here my alternative arrangement of the texts:
Quote:
CGC-SL-00.2: This is the first part of what had been CGC-SL-04. To better bind the text together I had to change more often between the one and the other. Thus we have here now Saurons overall motive first. CGC-SL-01: After the overall motive here the special news making Sauron adapt his plans. CGC-SL-05: I left that editing marker in, but really the text oft he source is contiuos between CGC-SL-01 and CGC-SL-05. CGC-SL-00.1: Here I would enter the story oft he Elessar returned or made anew. As we have just mentioned Galadriels intensivied contacts with Lórinand and explained that that relam extended into the woods among Amon Lanc (Later Dol Guldur), it seems natural that the meeting of Galadriel with Olórin could have been in Greenwood at that time or that Galadriel would come back to Eregion to speak to Celebrimbor. CGC-SL-00.3, CGC-SL-00.67, CGC-SL-00.7b, CGC-SL-00.73 and CGC-SL-00.75: As we decided to make Celebrimbor the maker of the first Elessar we have adapt our text here accordingly. CGC-SL-00.8b: Since in my editing Galadriel has just been to Lórinand which includes the later Dol Guldur and I will take up that about for a time in the next used source text, I think that the sentence can be used. CGC-SL-12.5: Here we come back to Galadriels successful mission to Lórinand, getting influence and counteracting Sauron (or the center of ill will against the Eldar observed by her as coming from the east). CGC-SL-13b: Now her is what gave rise to the idea of a different placement of the texts. CGC-SL-04b: Now this exactly the fuller tale of how Sauron was rejected in Lindon. It was part of CGC-SL-04 in my first editing. CGC-SL-04c: This I have now moved farther down, but I still think that they should start the making before they revolt against Galadriel, because the secrets of craft provided by Sauron for the rings of power are a good motive for the Mírdain to come under Saurons influence. The text was as well part of CGC-SL-04 in the first editing. CGC-SL-20.5: The marking is just to introduce the source information since I wanted to avoid an insert into an insert. Respectfully Findegil |
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05-28-2018, 07:29 PM | #9 | ||
Quentingolmo
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This new draft actually looks quite excellent! I have only a few very minor (mostly grammatical) changes to suggest:
I think the tales of the Elessar seem to begin rather abruptly. Perhaps we should add in the subheading from their origin: BY-HL-08.5 <the Elessar The Elessar>. This would help separate the specific tale from the rest of the chapter. After the second version finishes, we could also add in a break before the text resumes, to set it apart. CGC-SL-00.3: Galadriel's response to Olorin's question needs minor revision, thus: Quote:
CGC-SL-00.67: This is the same exact change as the one I suggested above, but for the second version of the tale. CGC-SL-00.7b: I think the entire bit should be removed. If Galadriel knew about the Elessar, how could she not know who made it? In the version as written she knew who had made it, so why should we change that? I simply removed it thus: Quote:
CGC-SL-13.5: I do not think the 'than in Lindon' is necessary, since we already say 'with the Noldor of Eregion,' and in fact adding in the bit about Lindon makes the sentence sound awkward. I think it is best to leave it out. CGC-SL-20.5: I do not think we need to specify 'Sauron's' here, since we refer to him in the previous sentence. |
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05-29-2018, 05:35 PM | #10 |
King's Writer
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BY-HL-08.2 & BY-HL-08.4: As ArcusCalion I as well found the change of subject at the beginning of the Elessar abrupt. So I agree to take up the headline, but then we have to put another one at the end of the Elessar stuff. And since we don’t have any good text for it, this can only be an editorial addition of ‘* * *’.
CGC-SL-00.3 & CGC-SL-00.67: Thanks for catching these! CGC-SL-00.7c: I agree, you approach is much safer than mine. But I will call the complete removal CGC-SL-00.7c, following the old agreement that letters nominate different variants of the same change. CGC-SL-13.5: Okay, reading the sentence same time after changing it, I agree that it reads awkward. We leave the addition of ‘than in Lindon’ out. CGC-SL-20.5: Agreed, this might have been an artefact of shifting around passages. Respectfully Findegil |
05-29-2018, 08:04 PM | #11 |
Quentingolmo
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Looks like another successful chapter!
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12-09-2018, 07:43 AM | #12 | |||||
Wight
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First of all, I just wanted to say that you guys have done an impressive amount of work collecting together all of the writings about a particular subject and an incredible job in preparing these chapters. I feel kind of bad since you guys have done 99% of the work, and I'm basically just nitpicking. That being said, here are my comments:
1) In the second paragraph (I have bolded the section I wish to discuss): Quote:
Quote:
3) Even with a sub-heading and a break at the end, the "Elessar" section still feels really out of place. Even though it seems to be in the right place in text in terms of timeline, it really has no bearing on the events later in the chapter. It is abrupt to go from Sauron to the Elessar and back to Saruon. I propose we put "Elessar" at the end of the section; it contains a few references to her using the Elessar to make the land fair around her, and I think this fits after her taking up rule in Lórinand. In addition, I think this part of the "Elessar" text: Quote:
4) I propose a re-ordering of the texts to make it flow better. There is a mention of Sauron being named Annatar early on, then later in the draft it describes the names he took and explains what Annatar means again. The idea that Sauron anticipates the Istari is espressed twice at two different points. I propose the following (the parts I have added are in bold): Quote:
Quote:
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12-09-2018, 11:05 AM | #13 |
Quentingolmo
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1) That is a very good point, and I myself agree to the change.
2) There is no general rule (so far) for italicizing words. But you are right that in this case they probably should be. All the italicization is taken directly from the source texts atm, but we should probably discuss a standard. Your idea is good, I think, that in the context of linguistic discussion the Elvish should be italicized. 3) The reason the Elessar is placed there, is that the alternative tale is said to take place 'ere Sauron deceived the smiths of Eregion' which would mean that it can't take place at the end of the chapter. 4) I actually like this, for me it flows a bit better and makes more sense. However, the text you've taken is from a footnote, which we don't always pull into the body of the text. I think the text reads well enough as it is, but perhaps Findegil could weigh in. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-09-2018 at 12:12 PM. |
12-10-2018, 11:42 PM | #14 | ||
King's Writer
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First and foremost: We love it when folks are nitpicking our work. If theories uttered here go unchallenged they are either very obvious or no big accomplishment. And if there would be no exchange of arguments the work would be boring. So do not have any bad feelings and please go on nitpicking!
1) You are of course right, but I would like to solve the issue differently, since I think the broader reference of the original has some important impact here: Quote:
3) Okay, I agree to put The Elessar to the end of this chapter, this is a good idea. 4) Well, I have no objection of lifting the content of the footnote 7 into the main text, since the footnote is Christopher Tolkien’s way to give us the content of an ‘isolated note’. Thus we have not omly two text’s to deal with but three (which is good). But I have a few issues with gandalf85’s draft. - In Sil77, The Rings of Power is made a difference: first it is reported that ‘long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them‘. Then we hear that he was rejected in Lindon. ‘But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship. …’ leading to Saurons argument about Gil-galad and Elrond being jealous. Only after that we are told of his being most successful in Eregion. In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn we hear that ‘Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand‘. Thus it is clear that it was not only Lindon and Eregion that Sauron tried to befriend. I think we should keep that distinction. And with that also we might keep the separate names, as his name in the attempt at Lindon ans elsewhere was probably Annatar, while in Eregion he named himself Artano or Aulendil. - I am sorry, I tried hard but I could not make out how the text in between the two quotes given by gandalf85 should look like. Actually the second quote starts in the middle of what has been a footnote in my draft. My be we should give that chapter a complete new go: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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12-11-2018, 11:50 AM | #15 |
Quentingolmo
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I actually like this much better, nice job Fin! Only two comments:
CGC-SL-13.5: the initial 'But' should be changed to a 'Thus' to make the texts flow together more smoothly. In the old draft we did this, and I think it is worth doing again here. CGC-SL-13.2: where it says 'and a fair name' I think we should change it to 'and other fair names' since we have already in the draft said he took the name Annatar when he went to other places (of which there are only Eregion and Lorinand) so it makes sense that he would use all three names in Eregion. But we don't need to repeat Annatar here, but I think we should acknowledge its existence as a valid name. This I think that small change is for the best. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-11-2018 at 12:07 PM. |
12-11-2018, 03:41 PM | #16 |
King's Writer
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Okay, I agreed to both of ArcusCalion's suggestions.
Respectfully Findegill |
12-11-2018, 07:29 PM | #17 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Oops, I hadn't meant to pull text from a footnote. However, I really like Findegil's latest draft and don't have any suggestions other than to agree with both of ArcusCalion's suggestions.
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12-11-2018, 07:32 PM | #18 |
Quentingolmo
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This is why nitpicking is good! It can lead to a restructure and a much better draft!
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12-19-2018, 05:24 PM | #19 |
Wight
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Looking through the drafts up to "Of the Rings of Power" it seems to flow nicely, but the Elessar sub-section feels jarring. There are two variants of the story. Version 1 must be in the Third Age since it involves Olorin. But version 2 is set at this point in the Second Age, so it was placed in this chapter. Since the Elessar section is very conjectural and involves two versions which take place at different times, would it make more sense to put this in Volume III: Assorted Lore?
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12-19-2018, 06:21 PM | #20 |
Quentingolmo
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Just because it involves Olorin does not mean it has to take place in the Third Age. On the contrary. Gandalf did not bring the Elessar with him to middle earth when he came in the Third Age, and we know Olorin was a friend of the Elves in Valinor, so it makes sense he would be chosen to send it as a gift to Galadriel. Both of the stories take place around the same time in our draft, and thus go quite nicely in their own little subchapter here. It is a little jarring, but it is entirely contained in its own section now, and I think it is fine this way.
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12-20-2018, 08:44 AM | #21 |
Wight
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I was assuming Olorin brought the Elessar when he arrived with Radagast and Saruman in TA 1000. I suppose you're right, he could have arrived earlier. Galadriel and Celeborn's movements are very complex. The text states that Olorin meets Galadriel in Greenwood. I searched and couldn't find any info about this; at what time period is Galadriel in Greenwood? If it's around this time period, then I agree that the text should stay where it is.
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12-20-2018, 05:06 PM | #22 |
King's Writer
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Olorin did not come as an Istari when he probabaly brought the Elessar to Galadriel in Mirkwood. He came as Olorin the Maiar. And as Lorinand at that time included the woods on both sides of Anduin, and the time we speak about must be when she was driven out of Eregion.
Respectfully Findegil |
12-20-2018, 06:07 PM | #23 |
Wight
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OK, that makes sense. In that case, it makes sense to keep the sub-chapter where it is.
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