water as a symbol of good

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The genesis for this thread is twofold:
1) My bemusement at many (including, in one of his Letters, JRRT) questioning
why the nazgul were "put-off" by crossing rivers
2)an article in the book by the people behind TheOneRing.net entitled "More
Peoples Guide to J. R. R. Tolkien" by Erica Challis.

As for the former, it seems to me quite possible that it was the power of Ulmo
that was a deterrent to Middle-earth bad guys venturing over, on, in water
bodies, not just in the Third Age, but overall. Recall that Cirdan, even in Beleriand,
never had to deal with threats from the sea.

And the article "Secret Messengers", by Erica Challis' non de plume Tehanu,
generally mentions three forces of good (light, air, and water) but focuses on
water, observing that from the beginning of the awakening of men it was Ulmo,
through messages sent through the sound of water that stirred them. And she
perceptively remarks on an event I've always found most interesting in LOTR:

...when Sam and Frodo are alone in Mordor, darkness oppresses them and thirst torments them. Sam wishes Galadriel could hear them now-he'd petition her for a bit of light and some water, and that would be better than any jewels. Soon after, they see the wind rise up and turn back Sauron's pall of darkness, and not long after, they come across a small trickle of precious water. It's like a prayer answered. To Sam, maybe Galadriel is like a 'higher power' as he can know or understand. But in Tolkien's mind, maybe Sam's power is heard by Manwe himself, who foreknew and sent down a sweetly falling rain where it would reach the hobbits, forelorn in the Dark Land.

And while the ocean(s) as such are only fully utilized by the Numenoreans,
rivers (above all Sirien and Anduin) play key roles in the topography and events
of Middle-earth. Two examples: the Shire being (effectively) an island, which,
when Sam crosses the Brandywine, feels as though he is leaving his world
behind. And Elrond using water to thwart the nazgul at the Fords of Bruinen.
There are of course, numerous other examples of the beneficient effect of water,
from Tom Bombadil and Goldberry's realm to Lorien, as well as the negative
effects of "polluting" water from Lake Ivrin to the Sea of Nurnen.

To what extent, then, is this apparent presence of water as a power for good an
indication that the Valar (and specifically Ulmo) have not abandoned
Middle-earth to the extent it may seem in the Third Age? And any other
comments on this curious primacy of water over other factors as a force for good
in Middle-earth?

[Kuruharan]

I think that water is more than just a symbol, it is something of an all purpose tool.

The Valar can use it as a weapon, a means of communication, and as a means to provide aid.

More to follow tomorrow, after I've had some sleep...

[Encaitare]

It's not only in LotR that water is used to deter evil; fairy folklore says that to escape evil spirits sometimes one only must cross running water, past which they cannot follow. Perhaps Tolkien was drawing from this when he wrote about the Nazgul and Bruinen.

[Sapphire_Flame]

generally mentions three forces of good (light, air, and water) but focuses on water,

Meaning dark, earth, and fire are forces of evil? *pouts and goes to play with matches in a cave*

To point out a more general issue of evil being detered by water, you could look back at medieval folklore. Creatures of darkness (vampires, spirits, etc.) were incapable of crossing running water. This may have been something Tolkien drew on when proposing that the Nazgul couldn't (or wouldn't) cross rivers or get near water. Thank'ee, Encaitare, for pointing this out as well.

However, this is contradicted at one point in Unfinished Tales, when it is stated that the Nazgul cross the River Isen, and later the Sarn Ford in the south of the Shire. Christopher noted this and marked it down as a slight inconsistancy on his father's part (sadly, I do not have UT with me at the moment, or I would find the exact quote).

Water is often used as a symbol for life, with good reason (if you don't get water, you die). Fire, also, can be used as such a symbol, only with an emphasis on renewal and change. You may note in LotR the Nazgul, embodiments of Sauron's evil, fear both of these elements (see "Knife in the Dark" and "Flight to the Ford"). It could represent a fear of life (the Nazgul are "neither living nor dead"), and fear of change, or a resentment of both of these. I came upon this particular theory thanks to a rather proficcient author I know. Here is the precise passage:

“You were right about fire, Strider,” Sam mused after awhile. “You really saved us last night. Those shadow-things really don’t like fire much, do they?”

“No, they don’t,” Aragorn said, “although I’m not certain why.”

“I know why,” Frodo said dreamily, gazing at the small campfire.

“I thought you were asleep, Mr. Frodo,” Sam said. “You need to try and sleep, sir.”

Frodo nodded, but continued to stare into the dancing flames.

The last thing Aragorn wanted Frodo to be thinking about was the Nazgûl, but his curiosity won out.

“Why don’t they like fire, Frodo?”

“It’s life,” Frodo murmured, “warmth and life. They can’t bear it. It’s the sun they’ll never feel again, and love, and hearts beating, and all the things forever lost to them. Forever lost…”

~"By Chance or Purpose" by shirebound

.
The forces of evil in Middle-earth have always had trouble from Ulmo. It makes sense that the minions of evil would avoid Ulmo's element as much as possible. Also, the power of water can, as in the case of the Ford of Bruinen, be called upon by those with authority for good.

Then there's the theory my mom came up with: that the Nazgul are really made of cotton candy, and if they get in water they melt.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Tevildo]

And do you not know that there is a reason cats dislike water? It goes along with our role in folk culture and faerie as proponents of darkness and evil.

It is perhaps no coincidence that Master Tolkien had a hearty and outspoken dislike of cats and, at the same time, liked to used water in his tales to symbolize goodness. The two go hand in hand, at least from my perspective.

Tevildo, Prince of Cats

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Saphy

However, this is contradicted at one point in Unfinished Tales, when it is stated that the Nazgul cross the River Isen, and later the Sarn Ford in the south of the Shire. Christopher noted this and marked it down as a slight inconsistancy on his father's part (sadly, I do not have UT with me at the moment, or I would find the exact quote).

Hmm... I forgot about that. Perhaps it was because there was Elven power at Bruinen that managed to hold them off? They might have been willing to brave the water if it was just plan water, but with Elrond's spell thrown into the mix they might have been more hesitant -- if they could sense it, that is.

Cotton candy Nazgul? I love it!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"And do you not know that there is a reason cats dislike water? It goes along with our role in folk culture and faerie as proponents of darkness and evil."
--------------------------
Hmm. Perhaps goes to explaining King Tarannon's method of ridding Gondor of
QB and her cats:

King Tarannon had her set on a ship alone with her cats and set adrift on the sea before a north wind. The ship was last seen flying past Umbar under a sickle moon, with a cat at the masthead and another as a figure-head on the prow.

, UT.

Ah, ha! Perhaps the origin of Siamese Cats, in the realm of the Black Numenoreans.

Oh, and it turns out that Lisa Simpson isn't a very successful Cat Person, when
even the pet shop won't let you buy another one.

[Gurthang]

The statis of water as the life of all creatures is probably the main reason they would dislike it. I don't know that they did especially fear it. It was only after they started to cross the Bruinen after Arwen that they were washed away by Elrond's flood. They just didn't like it, that's all.

One thing that is kind of an interesting thought. Could the Nazgul drown? They aren't alive, I know, but they could still be defeated in a way, like in Eowyn's case. Could they have been greatly lessoned by being underwater for a time?

But then why fear fire, also? They had no flesh, so it wouldn't make sense that they would fear being burned. It just doesn't make sense.


Maybe if you take a different look at this, it might make more sense. They lived mostly in the shadow world. Water and fire may have existed and appeared differently in the shadow realm. I know that elves appear in radiant glory and that mortals appear as shadows, but what of fire and water. They might have been much more dangerous in that world than what we would think.

[Lalwendë]

As with most things in Middle Earth, there is another side. Water is also menacing. The Withywindle with its spirits, and the pool of water putside Moria with its 'Watcher'. The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth. The great power of Galadriel is manifest in a mirror created of water; this mirror is a reference to 'scrying', a mysterious method of prophecy drawn from our own world. Water can be protective, but in Middle Earth, it is also dangerous, treacherous even.

[Tevildo]

Lalwende has a point. It's interesting what a fear of water the Hobbits have. Also, Frodo's parents met their death by drowning. And of course there are the two examples of Numenor and Beleriand, both victims of rising waters.

[Kuruharan]

The sea is also a menacing body of water; it is the sea which drowns Numenor, and the sea which takes the Elves away from Middle Earth.

I disagree with this, at least in a symbolic sense. The sea is portrayed as being a tool of the Valar. Numenor deserved what it got. I don't find the sea being the means of transporting the Elves to Valinor to be particularly menacing.

Belariand was a slightly different circumstance as it was destroyed by the breaking of Thangorodrim, and then it sank.

Other examples of water being attributed protective qualities:

Boromir being cast adrift in the Great River.

Galadriel uses mists for protective purposes (the ride of Eorl).

[Lalwendë]

I disagree with this, at least in a symbolic sense. The sea is portrayed as being a tool of the Valar. Numenor deserved what it got. I don't find the sea being the means of transporting the Elves to Valinor to be particularly menacing.

I'll just explain a little of what I mean by 'menacing' in terms of the sea in Middle Earth. I do not see it as a malevolent power; its menace comes from the fact that it is tremendously powerful and has such huge potential for wreaking destruction - not unlike our own seas. The sea is in the hands of greater powers, and, right or wrong, it is up to them what they do with this power.

As to why I find the fact that the Elves are taken across it to be menacing, I am referring to the sheer size of the ocean; it is a bridge which it is almost impossible to cross, and the Elves are being borne that way. It is a one way journey with no coming back, much as the sea would have been viewed by convicts transported across the immense oceans to Australia. There is no gong back from this trip, and what is more, there is no communication, it is absolute.

[Kuruharan]

I'm afraid that I still don't agree with you, particularly as it regards the Elves. They were master mariners after all. By the time they made the voyage most of them wanted to go. It was the fulfillment of their "sea calling." I also don't think it was viewed as being anything similar to being shipped to Australia. They were going to happy land.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Water is Ulmo's touch. Ulmo, after all, hated the whole fad about bodies.

Also, water is the substance where the Music of Ainur has been "recorded". If you think of it this way, the drinking of water in ME involves both a physical and a spiritual act. Although the Men and Elves were created by Eru's song, not the Music, the drinking of water may be seen as a connection between the song of Eru and the song of the Ainur. Plus it sustains their life in this realm fashioned by the Music. Another connection between the two chart-topping hits.

Could the Nazgul drown? They aren't alive, I know, but they could still be defeated in a way, like in Eowyn's case. Could they have been greatly lessoned by being underwater for a time?

But then why fear fire, also? They had no flesh, so it wouldn't make sense that they would fear being burned. It just doesn't make sense. (Gurthang)

All life on ME is nourished by this water. Perhaps the Nazgûl fear the water as much as they love/hate blood: It reminds them of the life they once had.

As for fire: Well, the Flame Imperishable brought life to the Ainur and Arda (and all in it). Perhaps the Nazgûl are tortured by this reminder that they are now "cold" flame.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into this. After all, your explanation of the otherwordly aspects of fire and water is quite a good idea.

[Elfchick7]

Also, something to consider, is that the Ring Wraiths had no true physical form. Both fire and water coulod temporarly destroy their "Physical" form. I mean, think about it, why didn't the Wraiths go after the Fellowship? I am currently of the belief that they had to sort of strengthen themselves( i.e. recuoperate ) because Sauron had not yet grown to ful power so neither had they. Just a though.