The Fellowship in Valinor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lord of Angmar · 09-25-2003, 07:09 PM

The group dynamic of the Fellowship who departed for Valinor was very clear-cut while they remained in Middle Earth; Sam and Frodo were best friends and the main partakers in the destruction of the Ring. Gimli and Legolas, likewise, were great friends. Gandalf was their leader. In Valinor, it would be interesting to see how the dynamic changed, as they interacted with Elves of the Blessed Realm and sat in peace (as opposed to the constant turmoil of the events surrounding the War of the Ring). For one thing, Gandalf would (presumably) be revealed in a 'truer' form than the form of a bent old man that he wore in Middle Earth. He would perhaps wear a fairer raiment or even walk 'naked', invisible to mortal and even Elvish eye. I wonder how this would affect the mortals; Frodo, Sam, and Gimli, who I think (with the possible exception of Frodo) never fully grasped who Gandalf was or gleaned an understanding of his true nature. Finally, I have a wild question to pose to the members of this forum: Does anyone think that it would be possible, because of the circumstances of Smeagol's life, the role he played (although unwilling and indeliberately) in the destruction of the Ring, and the torture he endured at the hands of the One Ring, for the Valar or even Iluvatar to have cleansed him after his death, and perhaps even allowed him to abide in Valinor for awhile? Alas, 'tis late, and my mind tends to wander after I have supped and sat down to tea. If this is in any way an unoriginal thread, please inform me, but otherwise, feel free to endow this topic with conjecture on the general subject!

Cheers!
-Angmar

Finwe · 09-25-2003, 07:23 PM

I don't think that Smeagol could have gotten to Valinor by any means. Granted, he does deserve pity, and I myself pity him, but pity is not enough to get one entrance to Valinor. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, & Co. had to risk their lives for the freedom of Middle-earth, and even then, they were barely let in (at least the non-Elven members of the Fellowship).

**lindil** · 09-25-2003, 07:49 PM

Smeagol who could not even endure the ropes of Lothlorien would surely have been in utter torture in the Undying Lands.

One possible exception is the Halls of Mandos...

Lord of Angmar · 09-25-2003, 08:09 PM

Good point, lindil, except that I was assuming that if, in the extremely unlikely event that Smeagol was allowed to abide for a time in Valinor, he would already have been purged and absolved and thus would not still hate the Elves nor himself.

Angry Hill Troll · 09-25-2003, 08:43 PM

Although he wasn't strictly part of the Fellowship, I kind of wonder what Bilbo did in Valinor. After spending all those years in Rivendell translating the tales of the First Age, it would have been a thrill to actually meet some of those people! We know that Finrod was back from Mandos, and presumably some others were also by the end of the Third Age. Hopefully Bilbo lived long enough to do this.

Gimli--just think, it may well be that he could be the first dwarf since Durin to actually meet Aulë. I wonder if this would have ever happened...it doesn't seem like it would be against the rules.

Smeagol--Well, Beren did come back from Mandos to live for a while longer, but I'm afraid Smeagol didn't have anyone quite as compelling as Lúthien to plead his case. In any event, someone who voluntarily lived in a dark cave for 500 years might actually like Mandos. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Eggy · 09-26-2003, 05:00 AM

In my opinion Smeagol did a great service to the peoples of middle earth, because he took the ring out of the reach of men and so avoided many great disasters, such as wars over the ring, which surely would have only caused death. Even though he didnt do this of his own accord, still it was done.

Arvedui24 · 09-26-2003, 08:04 AM

If this is such a stupid point please shout at me very loudly. As u said Smeagol would not be able to endure Valinor. Why tho, was it because he was an evil being? If that was the case then Melkor and Ungolliant would surely not be able to endure Valinor but they did when stealing the Silmarills. I believe the purity and the power of the Valar would have been able to "cure" Smeagol. As the ring was a creation of a Maiar, Sauron they the Valar as a higher Order would have had power to remove its evil. Does this make sense esp the last part?? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

***Mister Underhill*** · 09-26-2003, 09:17 AM

I think there have been past discussions on the ultimate fate of Sméagol. Tolkien’s comments in Letter 181 are here very pertinent:

Quote:

Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam's or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable. I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge. The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path. Need it ever have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer cd. be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different! By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Sméagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost.

[ September 26, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

tinewelt · 09-26-2003, 10:02 PM

the past few posts have been about smeagol . In Angmar's original post, I was most interested in the thought of the hobbits and gandalf. I agree that the hobbits did not fully comprehend gandalfs true being. I assume that he would probably re-claim (although he never lost it) the name "Olorin", since Valinor was his original home. I also believe it would be a shock (and honor)for the hobbits to behold the mightiest of all beings. (excluding Eru) It would also be neat to see how legolas would react to meeting some of the most important of his kin to ever walk in arda. As for Gimli, I picture a kid in a candy store. I believe that he would fall in love with Valinor just as he did with Galadriel. (not intimately, you know what I am implying) It is neat to think what it would have been like if all the fellowship would have went together. (excluding Aragorn, since his duties lie in middle earth)

The X Phial · 09-26-2003, 10:53 PM

And Boromir..since he was dead. Also, Merry and Pippin had work to do as well.

Arothir · 09-28-2003, 02:14 PM

Bilbo reminds me of Pengolodh. In Valinor, he'd be pestering all the Elves with stupid questions. For example, maybe to Felagund,"Could you tell me what it like to lie in Tol in Gaurhoth for a month?" He could have written the Quenta Silmarillion with that much info. Gimli would be like a fish out of water. Frodo would sit in a house all day, thinking of his failure at Orodruin. I have no idea how I thought of any of this.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-29-2003, 05:14 AM

I thought that the remnant of the Fellowship didn't go to Valinor, rather they went to Tol Eressea. Is that right? In that case they surely wouldn't be able to hang out with the Valar.

Arothir · 09-29-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

The "immortals" who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman-the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea...

Quote:

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time...

This seems to suggest that the Fellowship actually lived in Aman, the mainland. However, according to the first quote from Letters, Aman is Tol Eressea and Valinor. I thought Aman was just the mainland.

Quote:

...Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial sojourn in Eressea, in sight of Aman.

This is even more perplexing. Here, Frodo clearly stays at the Lonely Isle, which is not part of Aman. Is there something I'm not getting?

09-25-2003, 07:09 PM	#1
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	The Fellowship in Valinor The group dynamic of the Fellowship who departed for Valinor was very clear-cut while they remained in Middle Earth; Sam and Frodo were best friends and the main partakers in the destruction of the Ring. Gimli and Legolas, likewise, were great friends. Gandalf was their leader. In Valinor, it would be interesting to see how the dynamic changed, as they interacted with Elves of the Blessed Realm and sat in peace (as opposed to the constant turmoil of the events surrounding the War of the Ring). For one thing, Gandalf would (presumably) be revealed in a 'truer' form than the form of a bent old man that he wore in Middle Earth. He would perhaps wear a fairer raiment or even walk 'naked', invisible to mortal and even Elvish eye. I wonder how this would affect the mortals; Frodo, Sam, and Gimli, who I think (with the possible exception of Frodo) never fully grasped who Gandalf was or gleaned an understanding of his true nature. Finally, I have a wild question to pose to the members of this forum: Does anyone think that it would be possible, because of the circumstances of Smeagol's life, the role he played (although unwilling and indeliberately) in the destruction of the Ring, and the torture he endured at the hands of the One Ring, for the Valar or even Iluvatar to have cleansed him after his death, and perhaps even allowed him to abide in Valinor for awhile? Alas, 'tis late, and my mind tends to wander after I have supped and sat down to tea. If this is in any way an unoriginal thread, please inform me, but otherwise, feel free to endow this topic with conjecture on the general subject! Cheers! -Angmar __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

09-25-2003, 07:23 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think that Smeagol could have gotten to Valinor by any means. Granted, he does deserve pity, and I myself pity him, but pity is not enough to get one entrance to Valinor. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, & Co. had to risk their lives for the freedom of Middle-earth, and even then, they were barely let in (at least the non-Elven members of the Fellowship). __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-25-2003, 07:49 PM	#3
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Smeagol who could not even endure the ropes of Lothlorien would surely have been in utter torture in the Undying Lands. One possible exception is the Halls of Mandos... __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

09-25-2003, 08:09 PM	#4
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Good point, lindil, except that I was assuming that if, in the extremely unlikely event that Smeagol was allowed to abide for a time in Valinor, he would already have been purged and absolved and thus would not still hate the Elves nor himself. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

09-26-2003, 05:00 AM	#6
Eggy Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Green land of Ireland Posts: 54	In my opinion Smeagol did a great service to the peoples of middle earth, because he took the ring out of the reach of men and so avoided many great disasters, such as wars over the ring, which surely would have only caused death. Even though he didnt do this of his own accord, still it was done. __________________ "A dog this good you have to feed every day"Homer Simpson

09-25-2003, 08:43 PM	#5
Angry Hill Troll Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ephel Duath Posts: 115	Although he wasn't strictly part of the Fellowship, I kind of wonder what Bilbo did in Valinor. After spending all those years in Rivendell translating the tales of the First Age, it would have been a thrill to actually meet some of those people! We know that Finrod was back from Mandos, and presumably some others were also by the end of the Third Age. Hopefully Bilbo lived long enough to do this. Gimli--just think, it may well be that he could be the first dwarf since Durin to actually meet Aulë. I wonder if this would have ever happened...it doesn't seem like it would be against the rules. Smeagol--Well, Beren did come back from Mandos to live for a while longer, but I'm afraid Smeagol didn't have anyone quite as compelling as Lúthien to plead his case. In any event, someone who voluntarily lived in a dark cave for 500 years might actually like Mandos. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

09-26-2003, 08:04 AM	#7
Arvedui24 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 26	If this is such a stupid point please shout at me very loudly. As u said Smeagol would not be able to endure Valinor. Why tho, was it because he was an evil being? If that was the case then Melkor and Ungolliant would surely not be able to endure Valinor but they did when stealing the Silmarills. I believe the purity and the power of the Valar would have been able to "cure" Smeagol. As the ring was a creation of a Maiar, Sauron they the Valar as a higher Order would have had power to remove its evil. Does this make sense esp the last part?? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

09-26-2003, 10:02 PM	#9
tinewelt Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the Seventh Gate of Gondolin Posts: 76	the past few posts have been about smeagol . In Angmar's original post, I was most interested in the thought of the hobbits and gandalf. I agree that the hobbits did not fully comprehend gandalfs true being. I assume that he would probably re-claim (although he never lost it) the name "Olorin", since Valinor was his original home. I also believe it would be a shock (and honor)for the hobbits to behold the mightiest of all beings. (excluding Eru) It would also be neat to see how legolas would react to meeting some of the most important of his kin to ever walk in arda. As for Gimli, I picture a kid in a candy store. I believe that he would fall in love with Valinor just as he did with Galadriel. (not intimately, you know what I am implying) It is neat to think what it would have been like if all the fellowship would have went together. (excluding Aragorn, since his duties lie in middle earth)

09-26-2003, 10:53 PM	#10
The X Phial Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Out there with the truth. Come find me. Posts: 317	And Boromir..since he was dead. Also, Merry and Pippin had work to do as well. __________________ But then there was a star danced, and under that was I born.

09-28-2003, 02:14 PM	#11
Arothir Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog Posts: 163	Bilbo reminds me of Pengolodh. In Valinor, he'd be pestering all the Elves with stupid questions. For example, maybe to Felagund,"Could you tell me what it like to lie in Tol in Gaurhoth for a month?" He could have written the Quenta Silmarillion with that much info. Gimli would be like a fish out of water. Frodo would sit in a house all day, thinking of his failure at Orodruin. I have no idea how I thought of any of this. __________________ Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine."

09-29-2003, 05:14 AM	#12
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I thought that the remnant of the Fellowship didn't go to Valinor, rather they went to Tol Eressea. Is that right? In that case they surely wouldn't be able to hang out with the Valar. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond