The Power of Nine - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Birdland · 08-24-2002, 03:39 PM

Just a little interesting snippet I ran across while searching for "new" words to use in the RPGs

Quote:

Nine:
A Celtic sacred number which represents the beggining and ending of all things. The square root of nine is three, the basic sacred number of the Celts.

After reading Leto's post about the "5 Itari", I had given some thought to the signifigance, if any, of Tolkien's choice of numbers; the Nine, the Seven, the Three, etc.

Do you think Tolkien chose these numbers intentionally, based on ancient mythology, or even his own Christian upbringing? Or perhaps a combination of the two, since many of the Christian teachings borrowed from other cultures; sort of as a way to give the people something they could relate to.

Or did Tolkien just think: "Nine. Yeah, that sounds like a nice, round, threatening number."

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Bêthberry · 08-24-2002, 06:33 PM

Hi Birdie,

I wish I were better at numerology and then perhaps I could offer a more significant reply. Also, I don't have Tolkien's Letters which might shed some light on his use of numbers. (hint: calling Child)

However, given Tolkien's pervasive use of iconography and symbols (JMHO), I think that the Celtic meaning for 9 could be very meaningful, especially given the 9 wraiths are balanced by the 9 members of the Fellowship. Were Pip and Merry part of the Fellowship from his first concept or were they added later? Are they simply 'spares' or does their presence provide something more significant? They are not ring-bearers.

I would have one other question about the numbers. Why was 9 so important to the Celts, other than its square root? Were there other numbers or a larger 'metasignificance' for numbers, a context which made them meaningful, which Tolkien could draw upon? Where does 9 fit in with 7 numerologically? (7 used to be an important number, as was 12) And what about the 5 who sail west at the end?

To me, Tolkien's relationship with things Celtic deserves much discussion and thought. Thanks for pointing this out.

Bethberry

Joy · 08-24-2002, 10:26 PM

What I am about to say may sound a bit off the wall, but here goes! :

The numbers 3, 7 , 9, and 5 appear frequently throughout Tolkien's work. 3, 7, and 9 all represent completeness and perfection. 5 represents God's grace.
There were 9 Valar and 9 in the fellowship. In the Poem of the Ring, 3 rings were given to the Elves, 7 to the Dwarves and 9 to men. Though they were given (all but the Elven Rings) by the dark lord, I believe that to be a corruption of the original plan of Eru. The 3 races were to be the impetus for the destruction/overthrowing of Melkor's discordant song. The discordant song went against the unity of the theme of Eru.

This is where what I say may sound very strange

If you add 3+7+9 = 19. 19 represents faith. 19 is the numbers 1 and 9 which equals 10. 10 reprensents testimony, law and responsibilty. The number 10 is made up of 1 and 0, the number 1 represents unity and 0 represents eternity.

I can't remember where I got the number meanings from, but I believe that it was a Catholic website.

Birdland · 08-25-2002, 05:15 AM

OK, while searching for riddles for a certain riddle game ( [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) I came across yet another interesting snippet. In Norse mythology, creation is divided into 9 Worlds.

Since we know one of Tolkien's major influences was Beowulf and other tales from Norse mythology, (The name "Gimli" is the Hall of the Gods, or Paradise) I'm even more inclined to believe that he was making deliberate choices when it came to those pesky numbers.

If you'd like to learn more about the Nine Worlds, and perhaps find other references that Tolkien "borrowed", click here: The Nine Worlds

Baran · 08-25-2002, 06:34 AM

In Nordic fairy-tale tradition the numbers 3,7,9 and 12 is kind of magical, these numbers are being used all the time, and I think the same goes for Grims fairy tales. And you find them in the bible as well. So Tolkien did not chose these number by chance. As he was writing a fairy tale, I guess you can say he had no choice... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

burrahobbit · 08-25-2002, 09:35 AM

Quote:

The numbers 3, 7 , 9, and 5 appear frequently throughout Tolkien's work.

Where? I've been trying to think of things that are five since Leto's post, but I've had very little luck. If you could point me at more fives it would be very helpful.

Susan Delgado · 08-25-2002, 11:36 AM

Quote:

If you add 3+7+9 = 19

19 is also the number of lesser rings

Anna Licumo · 08-25-2002, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Where? I've been trying to think of things that are five since Leto's post, but I've had very little luck. If you could point me at more fives it would be very helpful.

There were five Istari of course, and at the end when they were leaving to Valinor, there were five travelers- Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo.

burrahobbit · 08-25-2002, 11:58 AM

Yes, both of those were mentioned before, but are there any others? I'm hard pressed to think of any

Legolas · 08-25-2002, 01:37 PM

There are others, but they do not seem to be so significant, and you could really find things like these for most numbers...

5 High Kings of the Noldor (if you don't count Fëanor)

5 offspring of Finarfin

5 major battles (Dagor..)

5 names for Gandalf

5 people wore the 3 Elven rings

[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

burrahobbit · 08-25-2002, 05:00 PM

5 things that you just listed! Holy crap!

Arwen Imladris · 08-25-2002, 05:20 PM

I bet that you could find a significance to just about any number.

Bêthberry · 08-25-2002, 08:44 PM

And let us not forget Frodo of the Nine Fingers. (Yes, he is called that in LOTR.) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Actually, I think Joy's comment about the numbers appearing frequently was a reference to all the numbers generally and not to each specifically.

Bethberry

Ainahithiel of Mirkwood · 08-25-2002, 08:52 PM

Perhaps it is a mythological reference, or perhaps it was not intensional. The minds of writers and humans alike are very vast, and yet, terribly shallow. frankly, I'd like to think he just guessed at the number,but beleive what you wish. As long as it doesn't kill you.

by the way, if this is not a good way to post, please tell me. this is my first time on this, so I'm not quite sure what's going on.

Losthuniel · 08-26-2002, 06:34 AM

That makes no sense,Ainahithiel. The numbers all fit together too perfectly to be an accident. I, personally, can see Tolkien doing something like that.

Birdland · 08-26-2002, 08:41 AM

Welcome to the Downs, Aina! Your post was fine, but I have to disagree, too. Tolkien had a pretty narrow focus when in came to his writing. (I have yet to see any attempts from him of "modern fiction"), and while he did make snap decisions when choosing some of the features of his tales, he was deliberately writing a "mythology", and would have understood the importance of sacred numbers to people of the past.

Can you imagine what an annotated Lord of the Rings would look like? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

O'Boile · 08-26-2002, 08:56 AM

"What I am about to say may sound a bit off the wall, but here goes! :
The numbers 3, 7 , 9, and 5 appear frequently throughout Tolkien's work. 3, 7, and 9 all represent completeness and perfection. 5 represents God's grace.
There were 9 Valar and 9 in the fellowship. In the Poem of the Ring, 3 rings were given to the Elves, 7 to the Dwarves and 9 to men. Though they were given (all but the Elven Rings) by the dark lord, I believe that to be a corruption of the original plan of Eru. The 3 races were to be the impetus for the destruction/overthrowing of Melkor's discordant song. The discordant song went against the unity of the theme of Eru."

Joy, there were more than 9 Valar. I think the number was 14.

Bêthberry · 08-26-2002, 10:24 AM

I have found one reference which suggests tentatively that Tolkien was using numbers symbolically. It occurs in HOME 12, the chapter "The Calendars." Tolkien describes the calendar of the Eldar, which was short by 99 days after a century. Then he writes,

Quote:

The Dunedain altered these arrangements. They favoured the number 7, and also found a seven-day week more convenient.

The bold is mine.

Bethberry

Maltagaerion · 08-26-2002, 12:57 PM

In your list of thing of 5 don't forget the Battle of 5 Armies. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Arie · 08-26-2002, 01:04 PM

hmmm intersting-I always thought Tolkien had a thing for numbers-just as the Bible does...

Anna Licumo · 08-26-2002, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Joy, there were more than 9 Valar. I think the number was 14.

You're right, there were 14 some Ainur, but there were only 9 Valar. (Those were the Ainur who were sent to earth and so got a new special name.) Although to be REALLY specific, there were only eight, since Melkor got kicked out and "was no longer considered among the nine." Further proof, perhaps, that this discordance against Eru's song leading to a non-odd and special number is conclusive with Tolkien's diliberate use of such numbers.
Or maybe I'm just having too much fun with my copy of the Sill! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Joy · 08-26-2002, 06:35 PM

Anna, thanks. I have been trying to find that.

Quote:

“Among [the Valar] Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda...” - Valaquenta

These 9 were called the Aratar, yet as you stated, one fell.

O'Boile · 08-27-2002, 08:18 AM

Quote:

“Among [the Valar] Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda...” - Valaquenta

This was the what I was saying. There are 14 Valar, but 9 are held higher than the others. So in a way, we were both right.

Melichus · 08-31-2002, 07:23 PM

All I can add is that 3, 7 and especially nine are important numbers in traditional magic. Even in cartomancy (tarot cards and the like) these three numbers are very significant, and once again nine is the most prominent (along with the Ace...)

Galorme · 09-01-2002, 04:14 PM

I am really sorry to break all of you guy's bubbles, but tolkein really was very random when he chose the numbers of the rings. He changed the numbers of the rings very often when he was writing the LoTRs. ::finds reference::

Erm sorry i think that is a bit wrong. Originally it was 9, 7, 3 (being elves, dwarves, men respectivly), then it was 3, 9, 12, then it became the final 3, 7, 9. It seems that the 3 7 9 thing was there from the begining.

So basically i just made a point, then proved it wrong, which means... well that i am very jetlagged and need sleep. night [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

The Silver-shod Muse · 09-01-2002, 10:00 PM

Quote:

If you add 3+7+9 = 19. 19 represents faith. 19 is the numbers 1 and 9 which equals 10. 10 reprensents testimony, law and responsibilty. The number 10 is made up of 1 and 0, the number 1 represents unity and 0 represents eternity.

This sounds rather like all those 9/11 numerical "coincidences" that very bored people invent [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], but an interesting point nonetheless.

Certainly Tolkien would not have randomly chosen such important factors. It would be ridiculous and illogical to spend so much time working out the inconsistencies of a mythology and then not hide meaning behind every stone and grassblade.

burrahobbit · 09-02-2002, 02:03 AM

Quote:

I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number.

Tolkien didn't pick his numbers willy nilly.

08-24-2002, 06:33 PM	#2
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Hi Birdie, I wish I were better at numerology and then perhaps I could offer a more significant reply. Also, I don't have Tolkien's Letters which might shed some light on his use of numbers. (hint: calling Child) However, given Tolkien's pervasive use of iconography and symbols (JMHO), I think that the Celtic meaning for 9 could be very meaningful, especially given the 9 wraiths are balanced by the 9 members of the Fellowship. Were Pip and Merry part of the Fellowship from his first concept or were they added later? Are they simply 'spares' or does their presence provide something more significant? They are not ring-bearers. I would have one other question about the numbers. Why was 9 so important to the Celts, other than its square root? Were there other numbers or a larger 'metasignificance' for numbers, a context which made them meaningful, which Tolkien could draw upon? Where does 9 fit in with 7 numerologically? (7 used to be an important number, as was 12) And what about the 5 who sail west at the end? To me, Tolkien's relationship with things Celtic deserves much discussion and thought. Thanks for pointing this out. Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

08-24-2002, 10:26 PM	#3
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	What I am about to say may sound a bit off the wall, but here goes! : The numbers 3, 7 , 9, and 5 appear frequently throughout Tolkien's work. 3, 7, and 9 all represent completeness and perfection. 5 represents God's grace. There were 9 Valar and 9 in the fellowship. In the Poem of the Ring, 3 rings were given to the Elves, 7 to the Dwarves and 9 to men. Though they were given (all but the Elven Rings) by the dark lord, I believe that to be a corruption of the original plan of Eru. The 3 races were to be the impetus for the destruction/overthrowing of Melkor's discordant song. The discordant song went against the unity of the theme of Eru. This is where what I say may sound very strange If you add 3+7+9 = 19. 19 represents faith. 19 is the numbers 1 and 9 which equals 10. 10 reprensents testimony, law and responsibilty. The number 10 is made up of 1 and 0, the number 1 represents unity and 0 represents eternity. I can't remember where I got the number meanings from, but I believe that it was a Catholic website. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

08-25-2002, 11:58 AM	#9
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Yes, both of those were mentioned before, but are there any others? I'm hard pressed to think of any __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

08-25-2002, 01:37 PM	#10
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	There are others, but they do not seem to be so significant, and you could really find things like these for most numbers... 5 High Kings of the Noldor (if you don't count Fëanor) 5 offspring of Finarfin 5 major battles (Dagor..) 5 names for Gandalf 5 people wore the 3 Elven rings [ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

08-25-2002, 05:00 PM	#11
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	5 things that you just listed! Holy crap! __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

08-25-2002, 05:15 AM	#4
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	OK, while searching for riddles for a certain riddle game ( [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) I came across yet another interesting snippet. In Norse mythology, creation is divided into 9 Worlds. Since we know one of Tolkien's major influences was Beowulf and other tales from Norse mythology, (The name "Gimli" is the Hall of the Gods, or Paradise) I'm even more inclined to believe that he was making deliberate choices when it came to those pesky numbers. If you'd like to learn more about the Nine Worlds, and perhaps find other references that Tolkien "borrowed", click here: The Nine Worlds

08-25-2002, 06:34 AM	#5
Baran Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mordor/Lothlorien Posts: 71	In Nordic fairy-tale tradition the numbers 3,7,9 and 12 is kind of magical, these numbers are being used all the time, and I think the same goes for Grims fairy tales. And you find them in the bible as well. So Tolkien did not chose these number by chance. As he was writing a fairy tale, I guess you can say he had no choice... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

08-25-2002, 05:20 PM	#12
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I bet that you could find a significance to just about any number. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

08-25-2002, 08:44 PM	#13
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	And let us not forget Frodo of the Nine Fingers. (Yes, he is called that in LOTR.) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Actually, I think Joy's comment about the numbers appearing frequently was a reference to all the numbers generally and not to each specifically. Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

08-25-2002, 08:52 PM	#14
Ainahithiel of Mirkwood Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Helm's Deep Posts: 26	Perhaps it is a mythological reference, or perhaps it was not intensional. The minds of writers and humans alike are very vast, and yet, terribly shallow. frankly, I'd like to think he just guessed at the number,but beleive what you wish. As long as it doesn't kill you. by the way, if this is not a good way to post, please tell me. this is my first time on this, so I'm not quite sure what's going on. __________________ "Bygones be and lovers part, I'm asking you to leave my heart. Go in peace, harm to none, my new life, has now begun"

08-26-2002, 06:34 AM	#15
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	That makes no sense,Ainahithiel. The numbers all fit together too perfectly to be an accident. I, personally, can see Tolkien doing something like that. __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

08-26-2002, 08:41 AM	#16
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Welcome to the Downs, Aina! Your post was fine, but I have to disagree, too. Tolkien had a pretty narrow focus when in came to his writing. (I have yet to see any attempts from him of "modern fiction"), and while he did make snap decisions when choosing some of the features of his tales, he was deliberately writing a "mythology", and would have understood the importance of sacred numbers to people of the past. Can you imagine what an annotated Lord of the Rings would look like? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

08-26-2002, 08:56 AM	#17
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	"What I am about to say may sound a bit off the wall, but here goes! : The numbers 3, 7 , 9, and 5 appear frequently throughout Tolkien's work. 3, 7, and 9 all represent completeness and perfection. 5 represents God's grace. There were 9 Valar and 9 in the fellowship. In the Poem of the Ring, 3 rings were given to the Elves, 7 to the Dwarves and 9 to men. Though they were given (all but the Elven Rings) by the dark lord, I believe that to be a corruption of the original plan of Eru. The 3 races were to be the impetus for the destruction/overthrowing of Melkor's discordant song. The discordant song went against the unity of the theme of Eru." Joy, there were more than 9 Valar. I think the number was 14.

08-26-2002, 12:57 PM	#19
Maltagaerion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 60	In your list of thing of 5 don't forget the Battle of 5 Armies. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Friends don't let friends drink Starbucks

08-26-2002, 01:04 PM	#20
Arie Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Fangorn Forest Posts: 50	hmmm intersting-I always thought Tolkien had a thing for numbers-just as the Bible does... __________________ "Don't tell me of facts, I never believe facts; you know Canning said nothing was so fallacious as facts, except figures."--Sydney Smith

08-31-2002, 07:23 PM	#24
Melichus Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 54	All I can add is that 3, 7 and especially nine are important numbers in traditional magic. Even in cartomancy (tarot cards and the like) these three numbers are very significant, and once again nine is the most prominent (along with the Ace...) __________________ "The other [theme] had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony...and it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern..."

09-01-2002, 04:14 PM	#25
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	I am really sorry to break all of you guy's bubbles, but tolkein really was very random when he chose the numbers of the rings. He changed the numbers of the rings very often when he was writing the LoTRs. ::finds reference:: Erm sorry i think that is a bit wrong. Originally it was 9, 7, 3 (being elves, dwarves, men respectivly), then it was 3, 9, 12, then it became the final 3, 7, 9. It seems that the 3 7 9 thing was there from the begining. So basically i just made a point, then proved it wrong, which means... well that i am very jetlagged and need sleep. night [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!