Error in Appendices - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ailios · 01-29-2003, 04:26 PM

Hello,
I read in another place of an error in the Lord of the Rings. According to Appendix B Sam was born in 2983 but in his family tree it is 2980. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Iarwain · 01-29-2003, 09:51 PM

Welcome to the Downs, oh warm bodied one! Enjoy your death and sink ever deeper into slumber [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

You say that you've read about this error, why don't you check it out for yourself? It would be much easier.

speeking of errors, I used to think that there was an inconsistancy in that merry was present at the field of cormallen (of course, I was just forgetting something).

Iarwain

Beren87 · 01-29-2003, 10:37 PM

Its difficult to tell, as the family tree is in the Shire Reckoning.

Tar-Palantir · 01-30-2003, 12:48 AM

Ailios has a point though, because other dates of SR correspond correctly to dates in the Tale of Years. For instance Frodo is born by SR in 1368, by the Tale of Years he is born in 2968. But Sam is listed as 1380 SR and 2983 in the Tale of Years.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-30-2003, 01:31 AM

It wouldn't be the first time the Tale of Years has been 'incorrect'; Tolkien seems to have occasionally modified information after the Tale of Years was published.

Selmo · 01-30-2003, 04:43 AM

Small inconsistances in dates may be deliberately included by Tolkien. Such things happen in real historical records, so why not in fictional ones.

Tolkien's supposed source material, the Red Book of Westmarch, was written mostly by Bilbo, Frodo and Sam soon after the events it referes to, but the family trees, the Tale of Years and other material was added later. The Tale of Years was compiled from records held at Rivendell and Minas Tirith; they wouldn't be too concerned about the exact age of the Hobbits. The hobbits didn't have official registers of births and deaths, so the family trees are made up from family records and from individual's memories. Some families would keep very careful records, but families like Sam's were mostly illiterate and relied on memory.

Mistakes would be inevitable.

Atariel · 01-30-2003, 01:13 PM

Quite right, Selmo Old Bean, quite right.

Lostgaeriel · 01-30-2003, 02:49 PM

I raised this question in Novices & Newcomers
Samwise - Year of Birth? SR 1380 or 1383? but didn't get nearly the thought-provoking answer that's been offered here.

I'll likewise link that thread to this one.

Tar-Palantir · 01-30-2003, 03:29 PM

That's too convenient me thinks, to call a mistake intentional?

Quote:

. The Tale of Years was compiled from records held at Rivendell and Minas Tirith; they wouldn't be too concerned about the exact age of the Hobbits.

This is Samwise Gamgee we're talking about, not some Bracegirdle from Hardbottle. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The same Samwise who is a friend and savior to the King of Gondor. The same Samwise who sailed to Valinor by the grace of the Elves and their knowledge of his actions in the quest to defeat Sauron.

Quote:

Some families would keep very careful records, but families like Sam's were mostly illiterate and relied on memory.

Even most illiterate can still count. That's what fingers and furry toes are for. They seem to remember the vintage of ales and wines good enough - Who wouldn't love a pint of the ol' 1420? Also birthdays were special events and not to be missed, and the importance of reaching the age of 33 should not be overlooked. It is clear that one's age was an important consideration.

And the people that knew Samwise best (Frodo, Pippin, Merry, and maybe Gandalf) were most likely the ones who provided any kind of date of birth to the author's of the Tale of Years. Why would they be wrong? Frodo certaimly wouldn't be wrong - they lived a couple of doors from each other - for years and years.

And one more thing, there are only two hobbit birthdates in the Tale of Years, (maybe three, is Bilbo in there?) that should tell us something about how very important they were to the history books.

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

Ailios · 02-02-2003, 10:58 AM

It seems to be an error in the Tale of Years.
In earlier versions of the Tale of years (found in PoME) the birth of Sam is not mentioned. But in the older versions of the Gamgee Family tree he is born in the SR 1380. That suggests 1380.
Someone mentioned other errors in the Tale of years. Do you refer to "Tar-Atanamir.." that CT discusses in UT.

01-29-2003, 04:26 PM	#1
Ailios Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forochel Posts: 28	Error in Appendices Hello, I read in another place of an error in the Lord of the Rings. According to Appendix B Sam was born in 2983 but in his family tree it is 2980. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ Ailios

01-29-2003, 09:51 PM	#2
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Welcome to the Downs, oh warm bodied one! Enjoy your death and sink ever deeper into slumber [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] You say that you've read about this error, why don't you check it out for yourself? It would be much easier. speeking of errors, I used to think that there was an inconsistancy in that merry was present at the field of cormallen (of course, I was just forgetting something). Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-30-2003, 12:48 AM	#4
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	Ailios has a point though, because other dates of SR correspond correctly to dates in the Tale of Years. For instance Frodo is born by SR in 1368, by the Tale of Years he is born in 2968. But Sam is listed as 1380 SR and 2983 in the Tale of Years. __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

01-30-2003, 01:13 PM	#7
Atariel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Valimar Posts: 68	Quite right, Selmo Old Bean, quite right. __________________ Nai tiruvantel, ar varyuvantel i valar tielyanna nu vilya

01-30-2003, 02:49 PM	#8
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 477	I raised this question in Novices & Newcomers Samwise - Year of Birth? SR 1380 or 1383? but didn't get nearly the thought-provoking answer that's been offered here. I'll likewise link that thread to this one. __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.

01-29-2003, 10:37 PM	#3
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	Its difficult to tell, as the family tree is in the Shire Reckoning.

01-30-2003, 01:31 AM	#5
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	It wouldn't be the first time the Tale of Years has been 'incorrect'; Tolkien seems to have occasionally modified information after the Tale of Years was published.

01-30-2003, 04:43 AM	#6
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Small inconsistances in dates may be deliberately included by Tolkien. Such things happen in real historical records, so why not in fictional ones. Tolkien's supposed source material, the Red Book of Westmarch, was written mostly by Bilbo, Frodo and Sam soon after the events it referes to, but the family trees, the Tale of Years and other material was added later. The Tale of Years was compiled from records held at Rivendell and Minas Tirith; they wouldn't be too concerned about the exact age of the Hobbits. The hobbits didn't have official registers of births and deaths, so the family trees are made up from family records and from individual's memories. Some families would keep very careful records, but families like Sam's were mostly illiterate and relied on memory. Mistakes would be inevitable.

02-02-2003, 10:58 AM	#10
Ailios Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forochel Posts: 28	It seems to be an error in the Tale of Years. In earlier versions of the Tale of years (found in PoME) the birth of Sam is not mentioned. But in the older versions of the Gamgee Family tree he is born in the SR 1380. That suggests 1380. Someone mentioned other errors in the Tale of years. Do you refer to "Tar-Atanamir.." that CT discusses in UT. __________________ Ailios