Shadowlands movie: Tolkien slighted?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Rewatching the interesting Shadowlands movie, I was struck by the
almost total lack of JRRT appearances or allusions (just one book
one- anyone spot it?). Given that other Inklings received cameos (in addition,
of course, to C.S. Lewis and Warnie- and wouldn't movie Warnie make a
great Doctor Watson? ), then why no JRRT?). True, he didn't approve
of Lewis's Joy Gresham involvement (which doesn't seem especially
an example of "Christian charity" and tolerance, why no cameos for him
or CT.

[Mithalwen]

It is a long time since I saw Shadowlands ( I saw it when it first came out and was slightly distracted by my friend being in floods of tears during much of it...) and it is a while since it has been on TV. However, while I was disappointed that there was little reference to Tolkien and the Inklings (just a couple of brief scenes in the "Bird and Baby" - though it looked more like the Lamb and Flag across the road to me, which has suffered less from modernisation when I was there...).... and maybe a few words from an Inkling who bore a passing resemblance to JRRT.) we should not take this as a slight.

Remember, this was not the story of CS Lewis the "fantasy" writer or even as a writer but as an aging academic who unexpectedly found love and lost it in tragic circumstances. As a glance at the movies forum will show film makers have to simplify and maintain a clear focus - I know that one of Joy Gresham's sons was excluded and the timeline was rejigged to keep things simpler - I think a glancing reference to Tolkien is as much as can be expected.

Another factor to bear in mind is that according to Carpenter, this was a low point in Tolkien's friendship with Lewis. Lewis had produced all the Narnia stories in the time he was struggling to produce the Rings, he was irked that CS Lewis had not become a Catholic when he became a Christian and of course divorce was and still is a major moral issue for devout Catholics. In these secular days it is hard to appreciate that it could be such an issue but Catholicism was something that separated Tolkien a little from the mainstream of society and perhaps made him somewhat hardline as a response. Ironically it was Edith Tolkien who became friends with Joy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Ironically it was Edith Tolkien who became friends with Joy.

Well, given Edith's feelings about Catholicism, perhaps not all that 'ironic'.....

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, given Edith's feelings about Catholicism, perhaps not all that 'ironic'.....

I only meant that she didn't usually have much contact with other academic wives... if I remember rightly. I can't help thinking that the conversion was the tragedy of the marriage - in these times it would have been acceptable to the Catholic Church (if not to JRRT ) for Edith merely to agree to the children being raised RC. Edith would surely have flourished as a mainstay of an Anglican church where her skills as a musician would have been truly appreciated - and would have given her a congenial social sphere of her own. Tolkien's attitude on this matter is one thing I actively dislike him for. The harshness suffered by his mother doesn't justify insensitivity to his wife...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I only meant that she didn't usually have much contact with other academic wives... if I remember rightly. I can't help thinking that the conversion was the tragedy of the marriage - in these times it would have been acceptable to the Catholic Church (if not to JRRT ) for Edith merely to agree to the children being raised RC. Edith would surely have flourished as a mainstay of an Anglican church where her skills as a musician would have been truly appreciated - and would have given her a congenial social sphere of her own. Tolkien's attitude on this matter is one thing I actively dislike him for. The harshness suffered by his mother doesn't justify insensitivity to his wife...

I wouldn't be so quick to judge, myself...

Personally, from my own personal worldview, I can understand Tolkien in this perspective. I know that for myself, as a practising Catholic with my own mentality (dare I say a mentality that Tolkien has helped shape?) I would find it very hard to marry someone who didn't share and participate in my beliefs. My religion is a large enough part of my life that spending the rest of my life with someone who couldn't/wouldn't participate in it would be very hard. Furthermore, is it such a bad sign that Tolkien puts his faith, his belief and devotion to the one, eternal God, ahead of his love for another person? In this postmodernist day and age, I realise that few people would put love of God ahead of love of Man (or is that Woman? ), but is it such a ignoble thing when one does?

And as for the Lewis situation, I think it a bit of a natural disappointment to have one's friend turn to Christianity- not entirely without your help- and have him chose a denomination other than one's own. I know that if I had been encouraging an atheist friend who was looking at Christianity, I would be rather disappointed if he chose to be an Anglican rather than a Catholic.

However, it should really be noted that this was long behind Tolkien and Lewis by the time that Shadowlands takes place. By then, Tolkien and Lewis had not only got over that, but had spent a great many years as great friends. Their friendship was not as close as it had once been, true, but that is simply the way their lives diverged, and really had nothing to do with religion at that point.

[Mithalwen]

I don't judge him, I just dislike it..... and I think it's consequences damaged her. I cheered when I read in the bio that Edith went back to the CofE late in life and just wish she had done it years earlier. But to an extent it is about the role of wives in that era rather than Catholicism per se....

It was the rules of his Church not his god he was putting first - the God of the Cof E is the same as the Catholic one..... I don't think the love of God justifies oppressing your wife. Anyone who thinks it does should not marry...........

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

It was the rules of his Church not his god he was putting first - the God of the Cof E is the same as the Catholic one..... I don't think the love of God justifies oppressing your wife. Anyone who thinks it does should not marry...........

While I don't want to stray too far away from the Shadowlands topic here, I did want to reply to this point, for it is one that has long perplexed me.

It was not the rules of Tolkien's Church--as Mithalwen stated earlier on this thread--which made Tolkien insist upon Edith's conversion. The Catholic Church did not require spouses to convert upon marriage. The only condition placed was an agreement that all children be raised Roman Catholic.

So, Tolkien did not force Edith because of Church rules. Why did he do it? It seems completely out of character with the image we have of him from LotR and his Letters.

He is so often held up as one who despises the bullies, the autocrats, the cruel Sarumans who subjugate people, the man who has so much pity for Gollem. Was it an individual interpretation of his faith which compelled him to the demand? Did his faith make a bully of him? Even his biographer, Carpenter, is forced to become an apologist about Tolkien's indifference to Edith's discomfort with such things as Confession. Was Tolkien really unable to accept the Church of England as a Christian sect?

I could see it as the arrogance of a young man, full of enthusiasm, faith, confidence, a man whose understanding was to become tempered over time, but it seems to me that maybe Mithalwen is right when she says it relates more to issues about wives, faculty wives, at the time, as I recall it was difficult for Tolkien to accept Joy as Lewis' wife. And not because of the divorce issue. Something about a woman intruding upon the male preserve of the Inklings I suspect. But as I have not read any Lewis biographies, I don't have a full sense of the personalities.

[Dûrbelethwen]

Yes I noticed that one evening Douglas was reading the Hobbit. Although I would not have known it was the Hobbit if I had not recoginzed the orignal cover of the first printing ( and subsequent printings until changed).

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Yep. Dûrbelethwen got it. Interesting that recent copies of The Hobbit
(and the annotated Hobbit) have gone back to that cover, which is
how I spotted it.

And it is unfortunate that Tolkien was so insistent that Edith convert,
especially since Anglicanism is much closer to Catholicism then other
forms of Protestanism.

As for the movie, I rather like postscript notes in movies when
appropriate, so I really think a brief later biography of Douglas
Gresham would have been appropriate, epecially given his
involvement in Lewis's literary estate.