The treachery of the Valar

[Mithadan]

Man, the Usurpers. The Valar and presumably all the Maiar knew of the Coming of Men from the Third Theme of the Ainulindalë and from the Vision of Arda. Indeed the Silmarillion states:

In those days,moreover, the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwë had not revealed it to them. But Melkor spoke to them in secret of Mortlal Men, seeing how the silence of the Valar might be twisted to evil.

Melkor was captured by the Valar after the Elves arose in the East. He was imprisoned for three ages in Mandos, and during much of these three ages the Noldor, Vanyar and the Teleri resided in the West with the Valar. By all of Tolkien's draft tiime lines, the Elves lived in the West for tens of thousands of years. During all this time, not even a mention of the coming of Men? Why not?

Clearly the Valar reached a decision to conceal the coming of Men from the Elves, likely before the Elves ever went into the West, perhaps during the same council in which it was decided that the Elves would be summoned. This was not a casual decision. It was apparently made known to each and every resident of Valinor. "Don't tell the Elves about Men." This is active and intentional concealment. What were the motives of the Valar? It was easily "twisted" into evil by Melkor, in part because it smacks of misrepresentation. This concealment seems unsavory. Why did the Valar do this? Surely they knew the Elves might get a bit miffed when they found out.

[Raynor]

There is always the scape-goat that Eru has complete freedom and can do whatever he wants, when he wants. The valar don't have to know everything; they can claim they have the right to be surprised too like the rest

On another note, in the discarded Guilfanion's Tale in BoLT I, the wizard Tu falls into fear of Manwe and even of Iluvatar when he learns that the elf Nuin has stumbled upon the still-sleeping first Men. We don't know why Tu feared Eru; maybe Manwe didn't tell the elves exactly because it was Eru's will - in Osanwe-kenta it is stated that Manwe "would do this or abstain from that in accordance with the [injunctions of Eru], always". Moreover, in the Atrabeth, it is stated that "the designs of Eru ...governed all the operations of the faithful Valar".

[Mithadan]

"the designs of Eru ...governed all the operations of the faithful Valar".

Even Aulë. when he secretly created the Dwarves?

Still, tens of thousands of years without a mention? And if Eru said this shall be so, which is not imtimated anywhere, why would he want things that way?

[Durelin]

I really would love to think that the Valar were playing a ten thousand year joke on the Elves. Just think of it! Tens of thousands of years of an inside joke!

All you'd have to say is, "Men," and Manwe would choke on his bagel.

But perhaps it was one of those 'test' sort of deals. The Elves were the 'firsts,' and likely the Valar had some understanding of the Children's pride. Could Men have always been the test of their pride? In the long history of Middle-earth during which Men and Elves inhabited it together, the Elves' pride always seemed to be particularly high when it came to any interaction with Men, at least from what I know.

I always like to think that supernatural beings of any sort have to test their creation at some time or another.

Or perhaps it just seemed so impractical for the Valar to bother to tell them. I suppose they would also know that the 'age of Men' bit was going to happen (sooner rather than later, at least to being such as them), and the Elves would all travel to the West where Men couldn't, anyway. So why bother?

[CaptainofDespair]

Hmm. This is an interesting idea.

Perhaps the Valar, or Eru, only wanted the Elves to know when the time was right. And with the way the Elves acted/would act over that whole Silmaril debacle (anger seemingly in their blood), it's quite understandable to withhold such information from them. As Mithadan suggested, the Elves might be quite 'miffed'. Why give them so long a time to let that grow?

[arcticstorm]

There is yet another possibility.

If I recall correctly, the Valar longed for the day when the children of Illuvitar, elves and men, would live in Arda, but as can be seen in the incident with Aule, the Valar themselves got impatient.

Many times when a little child knows that they have a baby sibling on the way they constantly wonder when the child will be born. The Valar may have realized that if they themselves, got impatient, how much more would the elves get impatient for the coming of their brothers, so-to-speak. And, because even the Valar did not know when, they probably realized that the eldar would be constantly wondering and maybe even asking about the when in hopeful expectation and they would not have an answer. The ten thousand year wait could very easily make the elves disbelieve the Valar's promise that men would come, and thus their trust in the Valar could have been shaken in that way.

[Macalaure]

I think it's interesting that the quote says Manwë had not revealed it to them, not the Valar had not. We know that Manwë had the deepest understanding of the Music of the Ainur of all Valar. The Elves learned much from each of them, maybe it was understood as Manwë's 'job' to teach the Elves about subtleties of the Music. In this case there was no necessity to reach a decision for the Valar not to tell them, and it was up to Manwë what to reveal and what not to, just like it was probably up to Aulë what to reveal about, say, metallurgy.

I agree that it was a misjudgement of him to withhold this information. The reason for the Elves' uneasiness about the Secondborn was that Melkor told them. Who knows what exactly he said? I don't think there would have been reason for mistrust had Manwë taught them at times.

So why didn't he? It is said Manwë was wholly good, so he must have had a good reason and no crooked second thought. Maybe it's just not so easy to teach about the Music and to understand what is taught? It's been a design of an extremely high subtlety after all and even the Valar don't know everything about it. This might sound silly, but: maybe ten thousand years weren't enough for Manwë to get to the Third Theme?

[the phantom]

It is said Manwë was wholly good, so he must have had a good reason

Say rather that Manwe had a well-intentioned reason. Even someone wholly good makes mistakes and does dumb things, so perhaps his reason was not a good reason. If there was a mistake in judgement involved it might have been a very stupid reason, though as I said before, well meaning.

[Macalaure]

That is what I meant. Thanks for the clarification.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Could the reason be that it was for Elves' own good? The Elves, being such confounded curious beings, always wanting to go meet things, talk and sing with them, and generally find out about the world, might have taken off for M-E to go looking for these Men. And we all know what happened when the Elves took off for M-E eventually...

Another point is simply that created beings are not "supposed" to know the future. Prophecy is one thing -- it's a mystical-myterious look forward through mortal agency -- but hearing about something that will happen from the word of God (or gods) is altogether different! Absolutely certain foreknowledge is the atomic weapon of philosophical/moral conundrums. I have enough trouble making sense of today and yesterday without having to worry about how tomorrow fits into the picture! The uncertainty of the future is a necessary precondition for free-will and its operation in moral choice.

(I also like Durelin's joke theory -- wouldn't curunir have been just SOO impossibly smug about it all, though?)

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Even Aulë. when he secretly created the Dwarves?

I don't think we can completely exclude that. Anyway, Aule was having good intentions in mind and intended to serve Eru, which, in Tolkien's philosophy, absolves him.

Another thing would be that during the years of the trees, Aman was open to possible visitors - it was only after the exile and curse of the noldor that it became closed. Perhaps the valars didn't want to repeate the mistake they did with the elves by inviting them to the blessed realms, in their majestous presence; it could be that some elves would bring men to Aman, or at least them know about it, which would be pretty much the same - the men would, sooner or later, visit Aman. According to Myths Transformed, life in Aman for mortals would soon turn to misery and suffering, because their doom was to depart after their assigned life time passed.