I need some reasons...

I’m not entirely sure if this belongs in this forum but one of my friends posed an interesting question after I told her that I’m trying to learn Elvish. She said, “Talking about Middle-earth and all that relates to it is great, but when it comes to speaking elf, I think it's becoming a little bit crazy. I've heard that one of the goals Tolkien had was insert, give a reason for the elf language to live, when he wrote the book. It's nice to know, but YOU actually learn it! Personally, I think it's a waste of time and energy to learn it, even if Middle-Earth is a passion to you. It’s not like it can be useful to anything.”

This made me think. She has a point, somehow. Why exactly do I learn this language? I gave her some reasons. I told her that the tongues of Middle-earth are art, and as some may find delight in music or painting or literature, others can simply enjoy a language per se, as a living system, maybe finding pleasure in admiration of its beauty. Others can really love languages.

But she still wasn’t convinced. She just kept on saying that it’s useless. That rather than learning Elvish, why not just learn Latin or any other languages. I don’t know what to tell her anymore. Can you smart people here give me some ideas?

[Nurumaiel]

Why, my dear, if you want to learn it and enjoy learning it and it is not harming you in any way, isn't that reason enough?

I attempted learning Elvish at one point, and though I never came along too far, it gave me a good first grasp of exactly how a language worked, as Tolkien did construct it as a real language. Consequently when I began learning Latin, and one or two other languages, I had an idea of what I was doing, however vague, and furthermore I had already worked out, through studying the Elvish languages, a study method that was best for me.

And so it very well can be useful for something.

Nobody has ever asked me why I eat ice cream. Isn't it a waste of time to eat ice cream? Why, what is it useful for? Sure, fruit is a very useful and healthy thing to eat, but ice cream, now. If anyone ever asked me why I eat ice cream, I should reply: "Why... because I like to eat it. It's enjoyable."

Now, Latin has many ways of being useful (and, as I mentioned before, Elvish has some ways, as well), like fruit, so why learn Elvish? "Why... because I like to elarn it. It's enjoyable."

[Mithalwen]

Well I must admit that while I do love languages and Tolkien was a major influence on me wanting to study linguistics, I think in many ways I agree with your friend.

I love the vocabularies in the Silmarillion and HoME and trying to decipher the meanings of names, but given that there are so few substantial Elvish texts in the works, I am not motivated to learn elvish to converse with people.

However it is a harmless occupation - I have always wanted to learn Latin properly but keep feeling another modern language would be more useful. That said I use the language I studied for 12 years so rarely that utility may not be a justification. There are many seemingly pointless hobbies that people enjoy - if you feel it worth while to spend your time thus in order to communicate with like minded folk it is up to you. Possibly no more eccentric than Esperanto. Also you might pick up a working knowledge or the source languages for Quenya and Sindarin (Finnish and Welsh which might be marginally more useful)

However the only real caveat is that I did read (possibly an urban myth) that psychiatric hospitals are starting to have to employ speakers of Elvish and Klingon to communicate with patients who have taken the whole thing a little too far....

[Lalwendë]

Tolkien's use of his languages in the book went deep into the very heart and meaning of his stories, so if you do manage to gain a working knowledge of the Elvish languages then I can only see that as a good thing. You would be able to recognise roots in words, particularly in names, which may help in understanding the history and nature of those characters a little better. The languages are all part of the story, and I admire anyone who has the ability to learn them. Yes, it could be seen by some as 'going too far', but then if you are interested in anything then why not pursue it as far as you wish?

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However the only real caveat is that I did read (possibly an urban myth) that psychiatric hospitals are starting to have to employ speakers of Elvish and Klingon to communicate with patients who have taken the whole thing a little too far....

That has to be urban myth! It did make me laugh though. A few weeks ago at work I admitted I didn't have a passport and when they asked me if there weren't any countries I fancied visiting I only half-jokingly replied "a passport won't get me to Middle-Earth". Still, it was early in the morning and I hadn't yet had my second breakfast...

[Mithalwen]

Maybe not as daft as it sounds......

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2003/05/13/071222.php

What do you mean no passport? Not a current one or never had one? !!!!!!!! But it is such a small country .. "you can't swing a cat without putting it through customs"?

My old one got me into New Zealand ....... which isn't far off.....

[Assasin]

I love elvish.... it's so flowy, and pretty. It's very hard to speak though. As long as you don't go mad while trying to learn it, I would say go for it!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What do you mean no passport? Not a current one or never had one? !!!!!!!! But it is such a small country .. "you can't swing a cat without putting it through customs"?

I've never had one! The seaside is quite far enough for me.

This story about needing Klingon and Elvish interpreters, it could be another case of 'red tape'. You can get all kinds of allowances for being able to speak unusual languages if you are a government employee, even if you never get to use them; this is particularly true in jobcentres. The point is that they must have the capacity to cope if someone does make contact who can only use x language. Though I'm sure if I requested to learn Elvish then I'd be chased out of the building.

The recent story here of someone who was teaching teenagers Elvish isn't all that barmy in my opinion. If someone isn't interested in learning but is interested in LotR and responds to learning Elvish then it can be a 'way in' to learning other, more conventional subjects.

[Nimrodel_9]

I love Elvish and though I don't speak much I enjoy memorizing lines just so that when someone asks if I can speak it, I can say something. My brother says the same thing though. I don't see it as a waste of time. Just part of my obsession.

Oh my gosh, Assasin! You just barely joined and already you have over 100 posts! *bows to Assasin and scuttles away*

[Boromir88]

I never cared much for the languages (elvish or any other, maybe a bit of the secret dwarf language Khuzdul). I have a dear friend that knows Tolkien's elvish well and translates anything I ask for.

I've never had much care for learning the languages, but that's just because it doesn't interest me (Four years of French is enough). If you like learning it...then continue to do so .

[The Saucepan Man]

Why do we discuss Tolkien here on the Downs? Because it's something we enjoy and it gives us a better appreciation of his tales.

Wanting to learn Elvish is a similar thing. It's not for me, but if you enjoy it then why not?

Although having said that, I do find it amusing that people are queuing up to learn Elvish when teachers seem to have such a hard time getting children to learn real life languages (or at least they did when I was at school).

And why not any of the other Middle-earth languages. I suppose it's that Elvish (both Sindarin and Quenya) are so much more developed than others.

[Formendacil]

I can understand wanting to learn Quenya or Sindarin. I'm not a linguist or philogist by any means, but I have always been fascinated by foreign languages, and wish I could speak them.

However....

I am far too lazy to spend that much time on any language other than English. Also, I think my mind is far too strongly grounded in this crazy language. I have become quite proficient in it, and have thus perhaps lost my ability to wrap my mind around other tongues.

I can pronounce Quenya and Sindarin better than the man on the street, and I know the common roots, but that's it.

I can pronounce Latin, recognise various words, have various prayers committed to memory, and can vaguely grasp a bit of the grammatical structure, but that's it...

I love the sounds of German, Anglo-Saxon, and the Meditarrean languages. I love foreign accents. But I don't know any more than a couple phrases and words in German. And in French, but French I don't enjoy as much...

That's it. I understand the motive, but not the drive to translate it into effort. I applaud you for it, though!

[Celebuial]

I've also been attempting to learn Quenya and Sindarin. I've been doing it for about two years but I haven't got very far because I'm also studying for my A-levels. Most of my friends think I'm crazy but a few understeand. Some of them have even started to reply to my greetings in the same tongue!

Who cares what your friends think? Eventually they'll get used to it. One guy that I just met in Russia can speek Gailic(ok I cant spell that!) and although he belives that I'm insane and taking things too far, he normally translates anything I say in Elvish to English, French or German (and sometimes Spanish) for our other friends.

I say you should just go for it! I'm sure you're friends have obsessions that you don't understand or share but you just have to accept that that is a part of them, and they'll just have to accept that Elvish is a part of you!

[Finwe-89]

Most important reason: It's fun, and enjoyable!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Shadow_lady,

Good question!

This isn't the first time nor will it be the last that someone will tell you something you want to do or learn is irrelevant or useless. It will probably happen many times in various contexts so the best thing to do is block your ears to the carping and learn to stand your ground in a polite but stubborn way. The worst thing you could do is to change who you are or what you want to do solely on the basis of what others say. If you start "caving in" on little things like learning Elvish, you're going to yield to the same kinds of pressures when it comes to the big decisions such as figuring out what you want to do with your life.

I had to smile when your friend urged you to take Latin. Years ago I grew up in a neighborhood of factory workers. When I told my family and friends I wanted to learn Latin, I got an earful about how a study of a dead language was a particularly useless way to spend your day. I plugged my ears, took four years of Latin, and went on to use Latin both in undergraduate and grad school. In a very real sense, 'applicability' is in the eye of the beholder.

I could give you a whole list of reasons why Elvish (or Latin) is something that has 'practical' value, but other people have already mentioned many of those things. The plain truth is that Tolkien had it right. We are all sub-creators. It is built into our souls, and that is reason enough for each of us to explore a thousand different worlds. For some subcreation is learning Elvish or writing poetry; for others it's craftsmanship, the impulse to heal or fix, or to raise a garden or a family. Who can judge which of these endeavors is more worthwhile than the other?

Yes, it's possible for someone to give you 'practical advice', to point out that a particular choice is more or less likely to lead you to the point where you can eventually gain employment or reap some kind of monetary reward. But the 'worth' of an endeavor to you as a person is something entirely different.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just tell your friend that you are having fun and you enjoy doing it. Then ask her why she watches professional wrestling or goes to Nascar races or does embroidery or collects beetles or does whatever useless entertainment she enjoys.

And tell her that Fordim Hedgethistle says *sheesh*.

[alatar]

When I first picked up the books, many years ago, I read over everything and looked into the languages that Tolkien created. It held my interest for a while as I would interpret the names of people and places in the books, hoping to glean any additional information that I could. Now, there's barely time to read the books..

Anyway, in regards to your question, you might not want to bother wasting time trying to defend your choice as most people will see it as odd and as a complete waste of time - but so what? It's your time to 'waste' and as long as you are balancing it with other commitments (i.e. "I decided to quit my job in order study Elvish 24/7..." ), where's the issue?

I find it odd that on a beautiful day people (many in my own extended family) will sit on the couch for hours screaming at men playing with a ball on the television. But I guess there's some justifiably good noble important reason for this activity that I must be missing.

Good luck with your studies, as you never know where they will lead you.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A waste of time and energy? Not useful?

What does your friend mean by 'waste'? As to utility, she is utterly wrong. The activity is a highly useful way to occupy yourself.

But 'waste', hmm.......that's a strange thing to say. In a way, all energy is wasted. But then again, it's there to waste. Moreover, it is there for you to waste.

And time cannot be wasted. You do not own it and you cannot do anything useful with it, let alone waste it.

I disagree with your friend. And I greatly admire you for learning some Elvish.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

I find it odd that on a beautiful day people (many in my own extended family) will sit on the couch for hours screaming at men playing with a ball on the television. But I guess there's some justifiably good noble important reason for this activity that I must be missing.

Indeed there is. As the late Bill Shankley (former manager of Liverpool FC) once said:

Some people think that football is a matter of life and death ... I can assure them that it is much more serious than that.

[Mithalwen]

well shadow lady .. I guess that is the definitive answer .... no matter how eccentric your friend thinks your choice ...... nothing could be a more bizarre and ludicrous waste of time than Football :P

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

And time cannot be wasted. You do not own it and you cannot do anything useful with it, let alone waste it.

I would have to disagree. Looking back over my life, I see many places where I wasted *much* time - not that you have to be productive constantly. These would be times where I sat around waiting for something to happen instead getting up and doing something/anything - even learning Elvish!

I would like to get that time back somehow as now that I have children, I'm running a deficit.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Time is not something you can 'have'. You cannot waste it. You just do things within time. You could do other things, of course.

But to consider time spent lazing about as wasted would be innacurate, not to mention insulting to my lifestyle choices.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I guess that is the definitive answer .... no matter how eccentric your friend thinks your choice ...... nothing could be a more bizarre and ludicrous waste of time than Football

Which goes to show that the value in pursuing activities such as learning Elvish and watching football lies in the mind of the pursuer (and those of like-minded disposition).

It brings you enjoyment and it harms neither yourself nor others. What more reason do you need?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Which goes to show that the value in pursuing activities such as learning Elvish and watching football lies in the mind of the pursuer (and those of like-minded disposition).

It brings you enjoyment and it harms neither yourself nor others. What more reason do you need?

well I doubt that we will ever hear of a incident of hooliganism related to learning elvish or that it will bring your nation into disrepute........

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Time is not something you can 'have'. You cannot waste it. You just do things within time. You could do other things, of course.

Time of course is 'elastic', thus the weekend goes past in the blink of an eye and any time whatsoever spent in the workplace crawls along like a lethargic snail dragging its heels.

Originally Posted by SpM

Which goes to show that the value in pursuing activities such as learning Elvish and watching football lies in the mind of the pursuer (and those of like-minded disposition).

Of course, the two could be combined. Though I'm not sure how reading a book on Elvish would go down while sitting on the terraces, unless it was cunningly hidden inside your programme of course. The meat pie at half time might help you replenish your brain cells though.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

well I doubt that we will ever hear of a incident of hooliganism related to learning elvish or that it will bring your nation into disrepute........

I presume then that you have not heard of the nasty incident in Luxembourg that led to Elvish linguists being banned from Europe for a lengthy period.

Football, like the study of Elvish linguistics, does not cause violence. People do.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I presume then that you have not heard of the nasty incident in Luxembourg that led to Elvish linguists being banned from Europe for a lengthy period.

Football, like the study of Elvish linguistics, does not cause violence. People do.

Well I very rarely feel ashamed of my nationality or intimidated on trains because of groups of drunken elvish scholars or feel I shouldn't drive into a certain part of town because there is a language convention... and somehow I don't think that spending hours talking about elvish would be regarded as an acceptable way to pass the working day.....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Not regarded as acceptable by people who don't really know what they're talking about.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

... and somehow I don't think that spending hours talking about elvish would be regarded as an acceptable way to pass the working day.....

Exactly! Talking about football or the latest prime-time slop is okay, yet to talk about Balrog's wings is considered to be nuts...er, well...okay, so maybe they have us on that one.

Luckily I work with another Tolkien nut who understands what I'm talking about. Note that we do not converse in Elvish, however.

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Bah! One man's hobby is another man's complete waste of time. If you have fun doing it and you aren't hurting anyone, I say why should anyone object?

I mean look at the typical person's hobby of sitting in front of the TV watching American Idol. At least at the completion of your hobby you'll be able to speak Elvish. What do they have? A headache and a irrational anger triggered by British accents because they liked the last guy Simon Cowell made cry.

Really one of my hobbies involves gluing and painting small plastic and pewter dwarves for the express purpose of setting them up on minature terrian and simulating battles with them (that is Warhammer Fantasy for those who don't know.) I know many a person who think that is a waste of time. However, I have fun so why should someone else's opinon bother me?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well I very rarely feel ashamed of my nationality or intimidated on trains because of groups of drunken elvish scholars or feel I shouldn't drive into a certain part of town because there is a language convention

You would if Elvish lexicography was the national sport and appealed to the same demographic. But, on that level, the two pursuits cannot be compared.

My point in comparing them was that I enjoy football in a way that is harmless to myself and others and brings me pleasure (particularly this season ). In that context, my choosing to spend my time in this way is similar to someone choosing to spend their time learning Elvish. And, from my perspective, criticising that which I choose to make my hobby (or one of my hobbies) is little different from the criticism (or ridicule) of Elvish studies will be to someone who wishes to spend their time doing that.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However the only real caveat is that I did read (possibly an urban myth) that psychiatric hospitals are starting to have to employ speakers of Elvish and Klingon to communicate with patients who have taken the whole thing a little too far....

It's not a myth, at least, not an internet-only myth. That article was published in my newspaper not too long ago. Aside from being a rather liberal paper (and rapidly decaying due to its being dumbed down for the masses) it's more or less reputable, or so I've been told. I, for one, only look at it on occasion, usually for Dave Barry, since any other section is likely to depress me. But, I digress. I have that article clipped out and taped to my wall, because it proves that there is hope for me if this whole music thing doesn't work out.

It's not a waste of time if you enjoy it. You can only grow smarter because of it, since you'll be working with a language completely alien to most people. You might not get to speak it to anyone, but you will definitely acquire further language skills, which is never bad.

And tell her that Fordim Hedgethistle says *sheesh*.

And upon hearing so she will hang her head in shame! Hah!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You would if Elvish lexicography was the national sport and appealed to the same demographic. But, on that level, the two pursuits cannot be compared.

I would dispute this... I attended a rugby international in Wellington - and I doubt there are anyone more passionate about their national sport than the kiwis yet I walked back to where I was staying among 34K less than stone cold sober rugby fans and have rarely felt safer in a public place. And just because you enjoy something harmlessly, it doesn't make it harmless. But I very much doubt we will covince each other on this one.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

It's not a myth, at least, not an internet-only myth. That article was published in my newspaper not too long ago.

Don't believe everything you read. Note that I tend towards skepticism, and so even the following link can't be trusted...

http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/klingon.asp

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

somehow I don't think that spending hours talking about elvish would be regarded as an acceptable way to pass the working day.....

It's entirely acceptable in my job, in fact such discussions are encouraged. In fact, part of my interview consisted of a discussion about The Silmarillion.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I would dispute this... I attended a rugby international in Wellington

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You would if Elvish lexicography was the national sport and appealed to the same demographic.

(Emphasis added)

Your position is illogical. A sport is a sport is a sport. Crowd hooliganism is caused by the spectators not by the sport itself.

My last word, as this has now become entirely off-topic.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by alatar

Don't believe everything you read. Note that I tend towards skepticism, and so even the following link can't be trusted...

Noooooo! My career!

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It's entirely acceptable in my job, in fact such discussions are encouraged. In fact, part of my interview consisted of a discussion about The Silmarillion.

Heavens, Lalwende, what, may I ask, is your job? Whatever it is, I want it!

I don't consider learning Elvish a 'waste of time.' It's a hobby, and uses can usually be found for any hobby. There, that's my two cents, do with it as you will.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by elronds_daughter

Heavens, Lalwende, what, may I ask, is your job? Whatever it is, I want it!

Oh, I'm only in Civil Servitude. I'm a pen pusher, a beauracrat, a minion of her majesty. But my boss is rather keen on Tolkien too so conversation naturally turns to such matters as Elvish languages. I think he values having a decent natter highly, which is what every boss ought to be like in my opinion.

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Oh, I'm only in Civil Servitude. I'm a pen pusher, a beauracrat, a minion of her majesty. But my boss is rather keen on Tolkien too so conversation naturally turns to such matters as Elvish languages. I think he values having a decent natter highly, which is what every boss ought to be like in my opinion.

Ah. I still envy you.... To have such a boss... 'Twould be a wonderful thing.