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Old 02-25-2008, 07:27 AM   #103
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvbn
Galin, it seems to me that the sum of your arguments is: In order to be accurate Peter Jackson should have incorporated ONLY the Elvish dialogue seen in the books and nothing else. I consider that an amazingly unfair expectation. NO adaptation of LOTR(BBC, film or the recent stage adaptaion made with the Estate's permission) has ever had the dialogue copy-pasted from the books.
I have made statements already that I think should show that this is not my argument, though I agree I might not always have been wholly clear in setting apart my preference (concerning the approach to the languages in general), and my actual criticism of Jackson here.

Within my argument I mean Jackson could have incorporated only the Elvish from the books, not that he should have in the sense that he 'needed' to, but only 'should' have in the sense that I would have liked it better (myself) -- that is only 'step one' -- as in, one approach he could have taken, but did not.

OK, I prefer that, but also it is a factor to consider if one is going to paint Jackson as going the extra mile. In that Neo-elvish is not Elvish (Tolkien's own art) no matter how good the grammar is, or is not, and considering that 'unassailable accuracy' is found with Elvish, then jackson really went that extra mile after he decided to skip this approach.

Back to the Estate: originally I said Jackson didn't 'have to' go to the Estate or anyone to represent Tolkien's Elvish; and again he didn't have to go to Salo for fabricated Elvish (who then in turn tries to make that as accurate as he could). He could have hired someone to help with using only the Elvish already available. OK, he didn't, and this is not the problem.

My ultimate preference on the matter should not be confused with what I have criticized Jackson for doing -- missing the feel and tone with respect to the type of language he added and largely tossing Tolkien-made examples aside in one fell swoop.

By type I refer not to grammar or how good a job Salo did with his invented stuff, but to Elvish renderings of dialogue like 'Sit down Legolas' or 'Be quiet...' or similar (whatever they all are exactly, I can't remember now). By type I mean to refer to Mr. Hostetter's distinction when comparing Tolkien's work to Jackson's substitutions: '... please note, are almost entirely in the form of songs, poems, spells, and exclamations made in crisis or _de profundis_ that are used sparingly so as to punctuate the story and to not cheapen the effect of the Elvish -- and instead substituting for them long passages of made-up "Elvish" (however skillfully) constituting (mostly banal) _dialogue_ of the sort entirely _missing_ from Tolkien's own application of Elvish in his story (or anywhere else).'


Quote:
And if you want to argue against the Salo Elvish reconstructions, I would like to point out that the accuracy(or lack of) of these is heavily debated, and I would advice against your passing off Carl Hostetter's opinions as fact when(I hazard a guess here) your own knowledge of Elvish is limited to a dozen or so words.
I don't want to argue against the accuracy of the grammar of Salo's Neo-elvish, and haven't been. Neither has Carl Hostetter in the quote I posted.

And here we are guessing that my own knowledge of Elvish is 'limited to a dozen or so words' incidentally. Can you correctly guess how tall I am? Or my favorite color?

I bet you can't

Last edited by Galin; 02-27-2008 at 09:10 AM.
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