[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by monks

Uhm Boro said I had big boots in his quote regarding Saruman. Of course it's implied with Gandalf's words to Saruman. Saruman wanted to become 'a Power' and replace Sauron who wanted to be King of kings essentially.

Perhaps my Saruman quote was too strong for the point I wanted to get across. I think Tolkien's note at the end of Letter 153 would have been better:

"Not sent. It seemed to be taking myself too importantly."

In this letter Tolkien is writing to his Catholic friend, Peter Hastings on a variety of topics...I believe Bombadil, the trolls in The Hobbit, the nature of Orcs, Gollum..etc. The point being he got to a moment where he stops and never sends the letter, commenting that 'It seemed to be taking myself too importantly.'

In Letter #211 Tolkien a similar point:

I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; and in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand.

And thus comes the general snag when using Letters in your research to prove there were intentional and coded messages Tolkien left for us and we all just don't care enough to find them and thus don't really care about Tolkien like yourself or others.

Tolkien wrote a ton of stuff...I mean a ton. And there's more that hasn't been published and there's even more that's been lost. So based on a person's own experiences and research yes you're going to find evidence that supports your arguments. As Tolkien writes in The Hobbit, if you're determined to find something, you will most likely find it:

There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something (or so Thorin said to the young dwarves). You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after.~Over Hill and Under Hill

Who am I to believe then? The author who wrote a ton, describing his motivations and intentions. Writing correspondence to friends, family and fans saying he doesn't like allegories, which he called the 'purposed domination of the author?' Or should I believe you that Tolkien was lying to everyone as one big elaborate gag and inside joke and that you have discovered the gag? Come on now, of course my reaction is going to be I think you're taking yourself too importantly.

You say you only respond disrespectfully towards others who disrespectfully dismissed your opinions. Fair enough, I see your point. For my part I didn't intend disrespect, but I am trying to explain why I react the way I do to your arguments. Which well, I'll leave at no disrespect was intended, but I think you are unnecessarily heavy handed in your arguments.

I would make this same argument to anyone who claims to know Tolkien intentionally left messages. Even if it's an argument that I'm inclined to believe, I would try to make a counter argument to show the only 'true message' is based on the experiences of the individual reading the story:

The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of the readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.

No doubt there are parts of your arguments that sound possible, language and the meaning of words was probably Tolkien's biggest inspiration. Numbers were also an influence...why else would it be necessary for Thorin to have a '14th member' of the company if the number 13 wasn't an ill omen?

A question someone might ask, if you're worried about 13 being unlucky why not just have a few less dwarves? Why did there have to be so many dwarves? Well, 13 appears to be an appropriate, reoccurring number. Theoden has 12 knights as part of his body guard. Barahir has 12 companions. Thorin has 12 companions which could be interpreted as his body guard.

It seems likely to me Beowulf was a contributing element, because the hero sets off with 12 companions plus the thief as the 14th.

Some others don't make sense like your 2 and 6 argument in the Tom Bombadil and Goldberry thread. As that's a different thread and others had addressed the reasons they disagreed, I won't comment further on that here.

I'll take the 1, 3, 7 and 9 great Rings of Power example. Tolkien died in 1973. Wait? Did Tolkien predict the year of his death and leave it as a coded message in the numbers of his Rings of Power? Am I to believe that is a coincidence? Why, yes. Yes it is a coincidence.

With someone who wrote as much as Tolkien there are going to be an endless amount of interpretations and experiences as there are with any large myth. The amount of material there is (and like I said there's more that hasn't been published and more that's been lost) it very much feels like a mythology, which will have many different meanings to each individual. That's truly the only point I'm trying to make and why at least on my end, I quickly dismissed your arguments earlier.

I shall bow out now and and I do wish you more luck in your research. As I posted in another thread, glad you got joy and excitement from Tolkien's story.