[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Almost everyone I know loves GoT and hates LOTR. I personally don't get it.

You must know very weird people. How can anyone hate LotR??? Because I can understand people hating ASoIaF, I think that's pretty normal...

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

I find it weird that people can 'hate' SoI&F.

...I can understand it very well. Whereas I enjoy it, personally, I can see what people can see as flaws or what they might not like about it. We have heard quite a few things here already, and I consider these objections relevant, even though I do not mind some of them:
- the prolonged and tedious narration not everyone may enjoy (see my previous posts for my thoughts about those),
- the "naturalistic" (to use a very mild word) portrayal of some things,
- the fact that too many supposedly "main good characters" die,
- the fact that there is nobody who we can identify with. Personally, that might be the one thing that I would see lacking the most, but with this kind of literature it does not bother me.

And with the last point, I get to a sort of response to Kitanna's post and further. I am fine with rooting for certain people or group of people, even though I would not really see them as "likeable" in reality.

Because it is only a fantasy.

In 99,9% fantasy books (or movies... that even less), I do not find myself "identifying myself" with the goals or attitudes of the characters I root for. But I can like people because they are "cool". Imagine, for example, Darth Vader - even discounting his redemption, most of the people found him "cool" the moment he stepped on the screen. You enjoy seeing him, even though you do not want any evil empire to rule the galaxy in reality, right? Something like that. The same way, I can, for instance, enjoy reading about some horrible people in ASOIAF.

Is it a kind of literature to find "role models" in? Certainly not, but surely that goes without saying? It has nothing to do with reality, it is, like Nog said, and I agree, very much cynical. But the big tale is still interesting for what it is: the big epic tale.

And, just a remark about the "cynism", still, there are the bittersweet tones which make the tragedy moving. I do pity characters who lose their family, their limbs, or all sorts of other things, like their sanity, for instance.

I enjoy reading about those people, I wish them success, because, fortunately, the world they live in is not our world and it is not even the reflection of our own world (unlike Tolkien's). If injustice is done, unless it's absolutely terrible, I am fine with it in the book, because without some trouble, there is no plot (remember what Tolkien says about good times when telling about Rivendell in The Hobbit).

I even enjoy reading, for instance, H.P. Lovecraft without believing in supernatural horrors eating people on U.S. East Coast in reality. Now I wanted to write that the same way I don't really "believe" in Elves dancing in the woods at night, but, truth be told, I do. But that's not the point Anyway, Tolkien's world is much nicer to believe in, so maybe that's what brings it closer. But, what I meant to say, is again that I can follow stories and see them for being only that, stories. Even if they end bad. (And all that said, we don't know how GRRM's story is going to end. Yet.)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Martin's view of the world is phantasy because he seems to be willing to only describe people at dire straits with more or less only their bad side showing up. In reality we are a much better and kinder species - and Martin I'm afraid likens cynicism to realism; where he is wrong in a grand scale.

That's basically what I would say. I would say GRRM is sort of "overdoing" the postmodern point of "disillusionment by/of humankind", which appears to be appearing also in literature more than before. Sure, no surprise about that. After the Enlightement's overdone belief in humankind, and exposure to reality that humans are after all only creatures like any other and their "reason" is not merely a tool to use for betterment of humankind, but also capable of making up rather disgusting stuff like gas chambers and atomic bombs, the cynism is obvious and expectable. But the "sober realism" today probably would mean exactly more stress on, for example, Tolkien's "hope". That's why I understand many people might not enjoy GRRM so much, because they may be exhausted by negative visions of reality from their surroundings. I, personally, perceive the world still as, however full of problems, a nice place to be in, and therefore I am fine with a bit of unhappy endings in my fantasy. When it is not utterly tasteless, of course. But I think GRRM has very many good qualities to counterbalance problems.