The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - WW: LXXXV

Nogrod · 01-05-2011, 04:00 PM

Eä Herald - Narvinyë 15, 7th age

We hope our readers have been enjoying our coverage of those astonishing events from the times immemorial thus far. All that you have seen or heard have been found in the latest archeological excavations into Utumno’s yet unexplored depths. Professor Nogrod, who has been leading the team of experts in the excavations, will now enlighten us about the records and their background.

Well, as horrendous the events were, luckily to the posterity Melkor appointed a few of his servants to record all of the experiment and – I guess because of his vanity – also the music he made with Sauron and other twisted spirits. But it is clear that what he really needed to record were the discussions the doomed Maiar went through during the following years as he was often busy elsewhere. That way he could listen to them afterwards to make his own deductions concerning how to rule and exploit the forthcoming hordes of mortal beings. In modern terms one could name his work as a kind of existentialist socio-psychological experiment of the functionalistic school of sociology.

So what you have been reading of late are transcriptions of the original tapes form the first decades of the experiment. We would have wished to publish the actual recordings but sadly because of the pending copyright issues - mainly regarding the estates of the deceased - the Eä Herald was understandably not willing to take the risk.

If the years confuse you, it should be told that Melkor had decided twenty years would be a long enough an interval for both talking and sleeping. Less than that might keep the Maiar too defiant and more than that could run the risk of ending up prematurely without giving any readable results.

Let us now join the experiment and fly to year 4560 Valian time to hear how the second “Day” of the experiment started.

~*~

The trapped Maiar woke up from their spellbound sleep when Melkor released them entering the dungeon. He didn’t seem to be in a good mood. Some even heard him hissing to himself something about a “sickening sickle” and “hating Varda”. But coming amidst the Maiar he collected himself and almost smiled.

“I have been listening to your discussions – and I do remember what Sally said before she ceased to be. And I do think I have to correct you on a few points.

You’re right with pointing out the difference concerning mere existence and the Actual Being which is eternal. Plato had it correct when he said there are two non-overlapping magistrates: the faulty and fleeting realm of physicality and the realm of eternal forms. But you’re wrong in following his implicit assumption that all real knowledge, the logos, needs to have an eternal form as it’s object to be called Truth, or in your further suggestion that the being of an eternal Truth could question the existence of contingent things. For there is an eternal Truth on fleeting physical and mortal existence. That is, that the physical and mortal existence is doomed to wane and finally die and cease to exist. That holds to all physical existence whenever and wherever it appears, always, eternally, ad infinitum.

Also I find it interesting you manage to make such categorical mistakes as taking the kelvar and olvar – or sentinent creatures if you prefer that expression – as a disproof of what I told you. Yes, the kelvar and olvar are created as sentinent entities; some of them, like the Oromë’s hounds or Aulë’s dwarves have a lot of self-awareness, and some, like Yavanna’s trees in the forest or the algae of the seas have less of it. They were created to born, live and wither away to give room for new life, like you say. But you forget, that their senses and self-awareness are physical in nature, they are not eternal Beings and you should know that. And exactly because they are only physical creatures, they are to suffer all the physical processes like mortal wounds, diseases, ageing and finally dying. Nothing that is physical is eternal. That is an eternal Truth for you.

So you seem to forget now the essential qualitative difference between Yavanna’s trees and Oromë’s hounds in relation to eternal Beings like you yourselves used to be… for didn’t you have a soul none of those mortal things have? That was the eternal you. If something bad was to happen to the physical form you had taken when coming into this world, your soul would have just travelled outside the created time and space to the Outside to rekindle the light of life in you, leaving the broken physicality behind you. But not anymore! What my music did was to tie your souls into your physical existence so that it cannot anymore leave the body, but will share its fate! And there is no conceptual contradiction involved, even if some of you might be willing to try that conclusion. Eternal beings are still eternal and finite beings are still finite. Everything is eternally like it has to be. The only thing that is different now is that you don’t belong to the former category anymore…

To spell it out with a parable: cubes are one kind of things and balls are another kind of things – and there are eternal Truths concerning both cubes and balls as to what they are, now and to eternity. But a particular cube can be turned into a particular ball by a skilled artisan. Cubes are still cubes and balls are still balls, but the particular cube of our example is no more a cube but a ball.”

Melkor paused for a moment… like he was trying to remember something he still had in mind.

“Oh, yes” he grinned now widely.

“It’s actually quite interesting to see how the condition of mortality dims some wits already, this soon, as I think I heard someone saying that “the true damnation lies in immortality”! So you are already calling Eru Ilúvatar the foundation of the true damnation? How easy will it be to lead the lesser mortals to my side if you crack in mere twenty years that badly? This experiment seems to produce much greater results I could have ever dreamt of beforehand…

Anyway. I see you have lost two of your companions. You have twenty years to find the culprits and to reflect on your sorry state. So have a nice Day!”

With that Melkor vanished.

It was only now the Maiar started looking around them. They soon realized that Kath and Ozban were not among them anymore.

“There!” Macalaure cried in anguish.

They rushed to the odd pile they saw on the floor to the side of the main hall of the dungeon. It looked like a heap of torn pieces of bodies – but they were oddly dry and shrinked in size, like they had turned instantly into thousands of years old mummies that had been broken.

“What new devilry is this?” Greenie wailed.

“They have ripped Kath and Ozban into pieces… How rude!” Manwë mumbled.

Elronds daughter reached to the pile with his finger. As soon as he touched it, the pile collapsed and vanished at the same time, leaving dust and ashes to slowly settle down to the floor.

“Now that is gross…” wilwa whispered.

“Let’s sing for their memory. We need something beautiful into this deep and dark place” Eomer suggested and started to sing with Cailín. The others joined the lamentation and their voices filled the dark hall with sadness and beauty the caves had never witnessed.

The living:

Eomer of the Rohirrim - An associate of Ossë, speciality: lochs and ponds, great alliance with frogs
elronds_daughter - A spirit of no-nonsense
Macalaure - Carmótar, the Maia of housework
Shastanis Althreduin - A spirit of water
Loslote - A spirit of sunshine and rainbows
Kitanna - A spirit of all things unimaginative
wilwarin538 - Belongs to Vána, cares for all the small garden dwelling, winged creatures
Nessa Telrunya - The patron of town criers across the world
Pitchwife - Tender of Oromë's dogs
Inziladun - A vassal of Námo, serving as a warden in Mandos
Rikae - A spirit in charge of silicon & static electricity
Boromir88 - A Maia of Mandos, the interpretter of dreams
A Little Green - A spirit in charge of aliens, hummingbirds and farming
Blind Guardian -A spirit of evil ways
Skip Spence - A follower of Aule with an avid interest in behavioural sciences
Mänwe - A spirit of short acquintances
Valier - A handmaiden of Yavanna, collecting the morning dew from the petals of flowers
Legate of Amon Lanc - A Maia associated with the unfathomed depths of the world's seas but also with the waters surrounding Arda in the outer space...
Thinlómien - A maia who lives in Lórien and paints the dreams of those sleeping there
Aganzir - Aka. Firebeck, a spirit of fire
Caílin - A spirit of secrecy

The dead:

Satansaloser2005 - (Innocent) A spirit of ducks, muffins and cookies; reduced to ashes and dust on D1.
Ozban – (Innocent) Yavanna's underling with inferiority complex. Caretaker of undergrowth and small bushes in general, especially blackberries; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2.
Kath – (Innocent) A spirit of nostalgy; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2.

Day 2 has begun. Load your arguments and sharpen your assertions.

01-05-2011, 04:00 PM	#165
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,330	D2, 4560 Valian time Eä Herald - Narvinyë 15, 7th age We hope our readers have been enjoying our coverage of those astonishing events from the times immemorial thus far. All that you have seen or heard have been found in the latest archeological excavations into Utumno’s yet unexplored depths. Professor Nogrod, who has been leading the team of experts in the excavations, will now enlighten us about the records and their background. Well, as horrendous the events were, luckily to the posterity Melkor appointed a few of his servants to record all of the experiment and – I guess because of his vanity – also the music he made with Sauron and other twisted spirits. But it is clear that what he really needed to record were the discussions the doomed Maiar went through during the following years as he was often busy elsewhere. That way he could listen to them afterwards to make his own deductions concerning how to rule and exploit the forthcoming hordes of mortal beings. In modern terms one could name his work as a kind of existentialist socio-psychological experiment of the functionalistic school of sociology. So what you have been reading of late are transcriptions of the original tapes form the first decades of the experiment. We would have wished to publish the actual recordings but sadly because of the pending copyright issues - mainly regarding the estates of the deceased - the Eä Herald was understandably not willing to take the risk. If the years confuse you, it should be told that Melkor had decided twenty years would be a long enough an interval for both talking and sleeping. Less than that might keep the Maiar too defiant and more than that could run the risk of ending up prematurely without giving any readable results. Let us now join the experiment and fly to year 4560 Valian time to hear how the second “Day” of the experiment started. ~~ The trapped Maiar woke up from their spellbound sleep when Melkor released them entering the dungeon. He didn’t seem to be in a good mood. Some even heard him hissing to himself something about a “sickening sickle” and “hating Varda”. But coming amidst the Maiar he collected himself and almost smiled. “I have been listening to your discussions – and I do remember what Sally* said before she ceased to be. And I do think I have to correct you on a few points. You’re right with pointing out the difference concerning mere existence and the Actual Being which is eternal. Plato had it correct when he said there are two non-overlapping magistrates: the faulty and fleeting realm of physicality and the realm of eternal forms. But you’re wrong in following his implicit assumption that all real knowledge, the logos, needs to have an eternal form as it’s object to be called Truth, or in your further suggestion that the being of an eternal Truth could question the existence of contingent things. For there is an eternal Truth on fleeting physical and mortal existence. That is, that the physical and mortal existence is doomed to wane and finally die and cease to exist. That holds to all physical existence whenever and wherever it appears, always, eternally, ad infinitum. Also I find it interesting you manage to make such categorical mistakes as taking the kelvar and olvar – or sentinent creatures if you prefer that expression – as a disproof of what I told you. Yes, the kelvar and olvar are created as sentinent entities; some of them, like the Oromë’s hounds or Aulë’s dwarves have a lot of self-awareness, and some, like Yavanna’s trees in the forest or the algae of the seas have less of it. They were created to born, live and wither away to give room for new life, like you say. But you forget, that their senses and self-awareness are physical in nature, they are not eternal Beings and you should know that. And exactly because they are only physical creatures, they are to suffer all the physical processes like mortal wounds, diseases, ageing and finally dying. Nothing that is physical is eternal. That is an eternal Truth for you. So you seem to forget now the essential qualitative difference between Yavanna’s trees and Oromë’s hounds in relation to eternal Beings like you yourselves used to be… for didn’t you have a soul none of those mortal things have? That was the eternal you. If something bad was to happen to the physical form you had taken when coming into this world, your soul would have just travelled outside the created time and space to the Outside to rekindle the light of life in you, leaving the broken physicality behind you. But not anymore! What my music did was to tie your souls into your physical existence so that it cannot anymore leave the body, but will share its fate! And there is no conceptual contradiction involved, even if some of you might be willing to try that conclusion. Eternal beings are still eternal and finite beings are still finite. Everything is eternally like it has to be. The only thing that is different now is that you don’t belong to the former category anymore… To spell it out with a parable: cubes are one kind of things and balls are another kind of things – and there are eternal Truths concerning both cubes and balls as to what they are, now and to eternity. But a particular cube can be turned into a particular ball by a skilled artisan. Cubes are still cubes and balls are still balls, but the particular cube of our example is no more a cube but a ball.” Melkor paused for a moment… like he was trying to remember something he still had in mind. “Oh, yes” he grinned now widely. “It’s actually quite interesting to see how the condition of mortality dims some wits already, this soon, as I think I heard someone saying that “the true damnation lies in immortality”! So you are already calling Eru Ilúvatar the foundation of the true damnation? How easy will it be to lead the lesser mortals to my side if you crack in mere twenty years that badly? This experiment seems to produce much greater results I could have ever dreamt of beforehand… Anyway. I see you have lost two of your companions. You have twenty years to find the culprits and to reflect on your sorry state. So have a nice Day!” With that Melkor vanished. It was only now the Maiar started looking around them. They soon realized that Kath and Ozban were not among them anymore. “There!” Macalaure cried in anguish. They rushed to the odd pile they saw on the floor to the side of the main hall of the dungeon. It looked like a heap of torn pieces of bodies – but they were oddly dry and shrinked in size, like they had turned instantly into thousands of years old mummies that had been broken. “What new devilry is this?” Greenie wailed. “They have ripped Kath and Ozban into pieces… How rude!” Manwë mumbled. Elronds daughter reached to the pile with his finger. As soon as he touched it, the pile collapsed and vanished at the same time, leaving dust and ashes to slowly settle down to the floor. “Now that is gross…” wilwa whispered. “Let’s sing for their memory. We need something beautiful into this deep and dark place” Eomer suggested and started to sing with Cailín. The others joined the lamentation and their voices filled the dark hall with sadness and beauty the caves had never witnessed. The living: Eomer of the Rohirrim - An associate of Ossë, speciality: lochs and ponds, great alliance with frogs elronds_daughter - A spirit of no-nonsense Macalaure - Carmótar, the Maia of housework Shastanis Althreduin - A spirit of water Loslote - A spirit of sunshine and rainbows Kitanna - A spirit of all things unimaginative wilwarin538 - Belongs to Vána, cares for all the small garden dwelling, winged creatures Nessa Telrunya - The patron of town criers across the world Pitchwife - Tender of Oromë's dogs Inziladun - A vassal of Námo, serving as a warden in Mandos Rikae - A spirit in charge of silicon & static electricity Boromir88 - A Maia of Mandos, the interpretter of dreams A Little Green - A spirit in charge of aliens, hummingbirds and farming Blind Guardian -A spirit of evil ways Skip Spence - A follower of Aule with an avid interest in behavioural sciences Mänwe - A spirit of short acquintances Valier - A handmaiden of Yavanna, collecting the morning dew from the petals of flowers Legate of Amon Lanc - A Maia associated with the unfathomed depths of the world's seas but also with the waters surrounding Arda in the outer space... Thinlómien - A maia who lives in Lórien and paints the dreams of those sleeping there Aganzir - Aka. Firebeck, a spirit of fire Caílin - A spirit of secrecy The dead: Satansaloser2005 - (Innocent) A spirit of ducks, muffins and cookies; reduced to ashes and dust on D1. Ozban – (Innocent) Yavanna's underling with inferiority complex. Caretaker of undergrowth and small bushes in general, especially blackberries; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2. Kath – (Innocent) A spirit of nostalgy; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2. Day 2 has begun. Load your arguments and sharpen your assertions. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...