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Old 07-14-2020, 06:58 PM   #98
Galadriel55
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In the interest of not spamming the thread, trying to consolidate into a single post

Epilogue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Both sets of subtitles say you, which would would mirror Finrod's words earlier. Is there a reason you went with 'he'?
There is indeed! Working from the lyrics by memory and misremembering the lines. Fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I'm having trouble fitting this to the sung line. I think even V1 Galadriel throws in an extra half-syllable (death-er-ly?), but I'll trust your rhythm.
Checked it, and it should fit correctly. Maybe we're singing it differently. In that case, an alternative could be considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
It's kind of a shame to lose the final 'who'd forgiven all', but you're right that the first version is rather nicer.
What do you think of:

Why did my fair brother go
Into sunset glow,
Grudging not the blows?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
His daunting struggle, maybe?
Taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
When he took the Westerly road?
Does that not imply the Elves' physical departure to the West though? Will need to consider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
An ancient Oath ruins those who hold to it fast

Or, if we can flip who's doing the holding:

An ancient Oath summons ruin on those it holds fast
Yes! YES!

To keep the same structure echoed in the 2nd line, how about: An ancient Oath that brings ruin on those it holds fast? The flipping of the holding was brilliant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I really like these lines. My only suggestion is No looking behind; I know it breaks the sentence, but 'No more' kind of stands alone anyway.
Sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I like 'sky-ship sails'. I have to wonder why you didn't go with Havens grey, though. ^_~
Real reason? Because I was going from the literal translation outward, and after discarding a few synonyms like "dock" and "port" and the like, I got to "harbour" and latched onto it, and therefore I think I never even got to "havens". *sheepish grin* You know, I feel really stupid when you point out these things that should have been obvious, but I guess that's what the editing process is for.

The thought-out reason: I wondered if even the word "grey" was overkill reference. But I guess you didn't think so! I wonder if "havens grey" will be too narrow a description, as it technically leaves out the Elves departing in earlier times and from other places - Beleriand, Dol Amroth, etc. On the other hand, it helps solidify the image of LOTR-Galadriel. Yea or nay? I'm torn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I love the flow in this stanza. It might work better with [b]More strong than steel and iron bonds[b], because 'steel of bonds' feels kind of forced. But the rhymes are perfect.
Taken, and thank you! ^.^ It was the most difficult one for me to get to the point where I was happy with it. I am so glad I redid it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Or even Our ancient tale was but etc.
Again: Thanks for pointing out the obvious, which somehow fails to occur to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
How about the fading shadows on the Sea? Sea/day still rhymes(ish)
This would never occur to me because they don't rhyme even remotely in a North American accent. But I like the structure better here.

If it's not fated for me to keep all of "fade" and "shade" and "departed" in that line - how about "the fading shadows in the waves"? It's the same structure as yours, but it's less jarring in the voice that lives in my head. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I'm struggling to do something with that first line. I really like the concept, but it's hard to fit "we stand guard upon your dreams" into the rhyme, rhythm, and grammar.
I can't argue here. Your suggestions are all in "verb form", but that might be better than nonsense form. I like "Ours - to guard your dreams where mem'ries dwell" best. Or maybe "to guard your dreams and in them dwell"? "To guard the dreams in which we dwell"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think 'the end' rather than 'its end', since the latter implies that they have to wait to the end of time.
Right. I did the should-be-obvious thing again. I somehow forgot that I changed the previous line in translation, which originally said "for you - to cross through the entire wide world", and so "its end" in my head was spacial rather than temporal. And I somehow did not realize that the lines don't match up anymore even after multiple rereads. *sigh* Seriously, thanks for the tips! Minor or not, they make a big difference.




The Duel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think we'll stick with 'excuses' for now, particularly if he winds up making some!
And you still got "illusions" in to make the reference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
There harps are playing
No ending in their song
Ooooh, an idea! No ending names their song - ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Huh. I think this is mostly down to the translation, to be honest. I assumed Sauron was mostly referring to himself and Melkor, since standing there saying 'hey, if you're confident I'll let you go' would be a bit dumb. (But then, Sauron...)

I'm not sure 'doubt' captures the concept... there's a word out there that I can't quite get hold of that does it perfectly. I'll come back to this.
Hmm, maybe I'm just not very coherent too when I get excited. I meant the confidence bit as in, you can't have power if you don't believe in your own power, if you don't claim it with confidence. Sauron plays on all of Finrod's doubts to make him waver in his conviction, both morally and in terms of his strength. He keeps emphasizing that Finrod is inherently inferior to an Ainu, he reminds Finrod that former bliss is ruined and suggests his memory is painful rather than comforting, tells Finrod that his doom is pre-destined as the world is steeped in evil ever since Melkor went off tune. Finrod counters all his metaphysical arguments firmly, but Sauron gets him on the personal jabs: you are weak, you are guilty, there is no help for you. This is a bit of a departure from He chanted a song of wizardry, where is seems that the downfall is that Finrod tries to call on the memory of purity, but the purity has been ruined, he has nothing to convey.

On the flip side, Sauron's duel with Luthien may be a lot less faithful to down it went in The Sil (no Huan etc), but Sauron's dismay is on point. He tries to fight with his old tricks and encounters something he does not expect at all. How Huan has turned into the Force of Love, which will disregard reason and find a way - don't ask, it just works, and Sauron's surprise is the same. Luthien just goes "I know it's impossible but I don't care, I'll still do it", and he doesn't know how to deal with that. Oh Finrod, if you were just a little less philosophical.

(Not that confidence is of any direct help; Hurin spit plenty of it with Eru's name into Morgoth's face, for all the good it's done him. But more like Finrod's lack of confidence in his ability to fight Sauron is the reason his strength wavers and Sauron wins).

But even in the more literal interpretation, "without doubt/hesitation" gives a bit more flavour if we can preserve it. The Noldor did break with the Valar - except that most of them didn't really break with them, and are still trying to maintain or regain contact. They didn't want to rebel, they were trying to not betray their kin in an escalating situation. Sauron is like, pick a side dude, and stick with it! The middle ground won't get you anywhere!

But again, this essay doesn't get us very far towards our goal. I would love it if we could keep the "doubt" reference, but if it just doesn't work, then I would be ok sacrificing it to keep the style.

Synonyms, synonyms... unhesitatingly? decidedly? I will also have to come back to this. I can also almost swear there is an "un" word that's stronger than "unhesitatingly", but it's eluding me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Lies' taste is foul
I like that! The Doc still shows the old version, I'll change it to this one.

Quote:
Shameless and stark
This line sits a bit oddly, both in terms of rhythm and content (I get how "stark" could fit, but it's not a word I would use naturally here). However, given how difficult it is to match anything else with the rest of Finrod's lines, I have no constructive alternative to offer. I will let you know if I get anywhere in tinkering with it.

Quote:
That gift was granted you to free you from your chains
With my innate powers, your proud heart is mine to change!
...
Your words are dangerous! Take warning and beware
...
If you're the best that Light has formed
Love it! An excellent Sauron! :-D





While we polish the stuff that's already there, what are your plans for next songs? For myself, I will probably stick to polishing and tinkering for a day or two, to catch up properly with the new stuff and revisit the flagged lines, and allow you to catch up properly as well. In terms of what to do next, I don't really have any specific ones in mind. I have enough of a good feel of Memory, Halt, and Captivity to give them a try; can also do Renunciation or attempt the Prison Duet (interesting, it comes after Captivity in V2, but before it in the Libretto) - or any of the remaining ones, really, except for Amarie's stuff (don't remember it well) and Feanorians' Quarrel (I feel like you have a much better style for those guys than I would). Are there any that you have a feel for in particular, or that you know you DON'T have a feel for? I believe you mentioned Luthien at Bay...
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-14-2020 at 08:55 PM.
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